hawkfanz Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 this thing will go on forever,for what its worth its down to personal choice,if I could only have one gun it would be my o/u 20g,reasons are,lighter to carry 28g of no6 is the same no matter what gauge its fired from,cost of carts immaterial to me,i shoot just as many ducks on flight pond with 24g steel as others do with 12g 32g steel,recoil don't even notice it, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks for all the info on shot sizes. I have also been given some of the answers to the below, but I'm keen to hear from others as well. Just to reiterate, the key areas I'm curious about are : >Is the pattern size between a 20b and 12b definitely the same? >Can gaps in a pattern be countered by using one of the heavier loads i.e 28g or 30g? >Why do people say that using a heavy load defeats the point in shooting a 20b when you can still carry a lighter gun about and it will still handle well? >Will a 20b that is fixed choked to 3/4 and full be useless for anything "average"? When you combine the fact it's a 20b and the patterns won't have opened properly causing a significant disadvantage. Thanks for all the input and advice that has been given. I appreciate the fact that this is very subjective and as such anyone giving advice may feel they need to don a tin hat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Idiot who doesn't know when to quit is what I think Keep going as your sinking deeper and deeper in the mire. this thing will go on forever,for what its worth its down to personal choice,if I could only have one gun it would be my o/u 20g,reasons are,lighter to carry 28g of no6 is the same no matter what gauge its fired from,cost of carts immaterial to me,i shoot just as many ducks on flight pond with 24g steel as others do with 12g 32g steel,recoil don't even notice it, Makes perfect sense I totally agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks for all the info on shot sizes. I have also been given some of the answers to the below, but I'm keen to hear from others as well. Just to reiterate, the key areas I'm curious about are : >Is the pattern size between a 20b and 12b definitely the same? I use the same chokes in either gun with similar results, it's difficult to be more specific than that but pointing it in the right direction is what really matters. >Can gaps in a pattern be countered by using one of the heavier loads i.e 28g or 30g? For game I use 27grams of 6 for clays 23grams of 8 and for my subsonic game shells 30grams of 5. They all work well and none are bumpy. >Why do people say that using a heavy load defeats the point in shooting a 20b when you can still carry a lighter gun about and it will still handle well? That's exactly why I mostly shoot a 20gauge, I like the lightness and handling. >Will a 20b that is fixed choked to 3/4 and full be useless for anything "average"? When you combine the fact it's a 20b and the patterns won't have opened properly causing a significant disadvantage. If the gun suits and you need to you can always get the chokes opened up for about £50 a piece. Thanks for all the input and advice that has been given. I appreciate the fact that this is very subjective and as such anyone giving advice may feel they need to don a tin hat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Neutron Shotguns are easy to second guess. Shotguns perform well with lots of shot. Patterns need shot Simple Correct, that's all you need to remember with shotguns. Shotguns perform well with lots of shot. So your saying eg 20ga using a 1-1/2oz ( yes you can get them ) is far better than a 1-1/8oz !!!!!!! or a 12ga using 2oz is better than a 1-1/2oz !!!!!! Yes, more shot is always better, recoil, gun fit and any other obvious malarky notwithstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The thing to remember with smaller gauges is that they were all built with a certain (optimum) shot charge in mind, I believe with 28 bore it's as little as 19g - yes you can get 21/24/28 loads but you then have to bear in mind that the guns weight is not ideal for the resulting recoil. If you look at the absolute best game shooters they invariably prefer a 12 bore with longish barrels and often with very tight chokes, depending on the actual height of the game being presented they also invariably err on the side of bigger loads with bigger shots (the sparser patterns being compensated for by the bigger loads). Lighter guns aren't as conducive to accurate handling, hence you won't find a single serious competitor in clay circles using a 20 or 28 bore with 28 gram ammo. In conclusion by all means buy and use small bore guns, they're a joy to carry, often elegant to behold and will kill as far as a 12 of comparable shot load BUT they won't be the equal of a heavier 12g, certainly not in ease of accurate shooting/handling when the going gets serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 >Will a 20b that is fixed choked to 3/4 and full be useless for anything "average"? When you combine the fact it's a 20b and the patterns won't have opened properly causing a significant disadvantage. If the gun suits and you need to you can always get the chokes opened up for about £50 a piece. £50 a piece? Possibly for opening up the barrels, but a move over to multi chokes is becoming a little more expensive.The prices of a well known choke manufacturer are about £150 for one barrel and £300 for two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Would a 12 bore throw 28gm of shot in a more even pattern than a 20 Bore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Would a 12 bore throw 28gm of shot in a more even pattern than a 20 Bore? No, with the proviso that both were equally well regulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 OJW, investigate and research no further, ditch the 12, get a nice 30" 20g mutli choke and go and have some fun! I can promise you, you wont look back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 OJW, investigate and research no further Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the age of enlightenment! Ask ye no questions, hear ye no truths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 No, with the proviso that both were equally well regulated. Very conclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the age of enlightenment! Ask ye no questions, hear ye no truths. Maybe you had not seen OJW's previous thread on the same subject. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/323356-bad-back-what-shotgun/page-2 I felt his research was done and all he needed was confidence from others in leaving the 12g behind and changing to 20g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 My contribution for what it is worth does not relate to ballistics, pattern or any other technical stuff. I changed to a 20 bore some years ago and I couldn't get on with it so I changed back to a 12 bore and light cartridges and have stuck with that ever since. It continues to amaze me that people who don't shoot particularly well with a 12 bore change to a 20 bore and expect to see an improvement in their shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) I have always held the thought that as the shot column in a 20g, is longer than a 12g for the same weight of shot. And on that basis could have the edge over a 12g on crossing/overhead shots. For decoying the ping pongers, or going away shots, the 12 with its more square pattern would be more advantageous. And on the aforementioned crossers etc, bluntly, the 20g would be more forgiving of a poor shot................like me I use my 20g for up to 28grm loads and when I like to use 32 grms, roosting and crow shooting, the 12g comes out. Just my thoughts and what I choose. Edited November 21, 2015 by turbo33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Guys, decent shells cost money. Some of my shells I make are decent big traditional loads. They are slow to reduce recoil. I'll do the daz doorstep challenge any day. Both sits and I have noted that subsonics outperform on the patterning and recoil from normal shells. Big shot charges are lots of shot, which is good for targets. As for the pressure penalties, it shouldnt come into it. After all we can just move over to HP lead shells. I can say, I've shot a lot of weirdo shells. I see very little reason to reduce shot weights or sizes to reduce recoil as the speed is the "main" culprit of recoil. I developed all manor of shells from 21g subs to the big 42g loads. And these slow loads do the business. There is a wiggle of compromise, but the pay off happens in patterns and recoil. I like to shoot in compromised loads, my minimum for game was a#4 at 1000fps it still works. The shells you can buy in the shops are shells developed to make money. Buy a loader, make1100fps 1200fps big old loads. You will not go back. The big loads can go up 1-2 shotsizes and still produce beauties of patterning. Often with"ANY" choke. I prefer big shot. Full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted November 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 OJW, investigate and research no further, ditch the 12, get a nice 30" 20g mutli choke and go and have some fun! I can promise you, you wont look back Haha thanks for the confidence boost! My contribution for what it is worth does not relate to ballistics, pattern or any other technical stuff. I changed to a 20 bore some years ago and I couldn't get on with it so I changed back to a 12 bore and light cartridges and have stuck with that ever since. It continues to amaze me that people who don't shoot particularly well with a 12 bore change to a 20 bore and expect to see an improvement in their shooting. I don't think a 20bore would improve my shooting, I want one for the weight, variety, and to help encourage my other half to get into shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 I don't think a 20bore would improve my shooting, I want one for the weight, variety, and to help encourage my other half to get into shooting. My main reason was the weight - lugging a heavy 12 bore claybuster around wasn't a good alternative to my lightweight and best SxS. I REALLY wish I'd done it years ago, to be honest. I took mine out for its first day on game yesterday and I loved it. I certainly didn't feel undergunned, though I want to try out some different cartridges over the coming weeks. It took me a while to find a cartridge I really liked for the SxS, so I think it will be the same for the 20 bore. One of the other syndicate members also turned up with a new 20 bore yesterday, making at least 8 of us now shooting a 20. I have patterned the gun and found the cylinder choke was a lot more open than expected (my SxS is cylinder and 1/4 I think), but the 1/4 and 1/2 were more where I wanted them for driven shooting. I reckon they are pretty comparable with a 12 bore - certainly for the type of shooting I do. In short, if you shoot game I'd definitely suggest looking at a 20 bore , but look for some cartridges that are easy on the shoulder, especially if your other half is shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted November 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 My main reason was the weight - lugging a heavy 12 bore claybuster around wasn't a good alternative to my lightweight and best SxS. I REALLY wish I'd done it years ago, to be honest. I took mine out for its first day on game yesterday and I loved it. I certainly didn't feel undergunned, though I want to try out some different cartridges over the coming weeks. It took me a while to find a cartridge I really liked for the SxS, so I think it will be the same for the 20 bore. One of the other syndicate members also turned up with a new 20 bore yesterday, making at least 8 of us now shooting a 20. I have patterned the gun and found the cylinder choke was a lot more open than expected (my SxS is cylinder and 1/4 I think), but the 1/4 and 1/2 were more where I wanted them for driven shooting. I reckon they are pretty comparable with a 12 bore - certainly for the type of shooting I do. In short, if you shoot game I'd definitely suggest looking at a 20 bore , but look for some cartridges that are easy on the shoulder, especially if your other half is shooting. Thank you, very informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 I've just started using 21gram loads for clay bashing with my 20 gauge and they seem to break clays as well as the 28gram loads do, certainly not under gunned. On one long stand I did try some 28gauge Eleys in one barrel got good breaks then realised I had been using the other barrel shooting the 21's for the longer target. I will still use 27gram 6 home loads for live stuff though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sishyplops Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) I used a 20g for the first time this year, I bought a 26" 686 with a short stock for my lads then got another stock for it so I can use it as well , and I bought myself a miroku 28" multichoke mk something or other, I don't think they were called mk70 in 20 bore but essentially that is what it is, I used 25g of 6.5 and got 11 of the 36 birds on a small but very friendly shoot of which I have another 3 days this season, it's in the fens and I wrongly assumed the birds would be low due to the flat terrain but they were not, there were some really testing birds especially in the wind that whips across the unbroken landscape, the 20g performed really well and was so light after my 12g MK70. I was given by a fellow 20g shooter (glyn thank you) some sipe 28g to try and they were really soft, I bought some black gold 30g 5's but did not feel the need to use them and never felt under gunned, looking forward to the next shoot and will again take the 20, but may give my 1981 aya no4 12g a run out if the stock is back after its refinish. I also took the the 20guages clay shooting using eley 7.5 24gr and had the excuses of 4gr less per cart x 50 birds = etc etc but did not need the excuses as was shooting as well as I do with my 12g Edited November 22, 2015 by sishyplops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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