mudpatten

It`s been a stimulating discussion gents, I`m just sorry that the younger ones amongst you will be living in a police state in ten or fifteen years if you neither know your rights or fail to stand up for them. Good luck with your future.

Patrick does offer to show his ticket to station staff rightly finding it difficult to deal with an officer whose agressive demands centre around non existant "Covid powers". The officer himself only mentions the fact that he`s ejecting the bloke from the station and not allowing him to travel for failing to have provided his details under the covid regs. Something the copper cannot demand and the bloke has no requirement to provide. As is often the case when gathering evidence, one needs to look at what DID happen, not what you thought happened. I know it gets a bit confusing but the one thing the copper was on solid ground with - the ticket - is not the thing he bases his subsequent behaviour around. The copper also makes the comment that he`s asked numerous other people for their details earlier that day. He had no power to do that either under the covid regs. And if he meant to address the issue using his BTP powers on the railway he should have clearly stated that and not persisted with the incorrect "covid mantra".

I wish I had time to elaborate but, watch the first 20 seconds, it goes downhill after that. The copper has no legal right to demand the name and address of, or to demand to see I.D. of a person under the Covid regs. He can require the details of someone who has committed an offence but the only way he can determine that is by questioning, and the person so questioned has every right not to answer. Remember the bit about "You do not have to say anything....." The bloke "Patrick" is Polish and knows his rights. So you might being from a country so often violated by its neighbours and then subject to the Soviet jackboot for decades. Odd that a Pole should be keen to uphold the civil freedoms that many of us seem keen to fritter away through ignorance. It`s very poorly drafted law but it really doesn`t help that the officer believes he has a power which he does not in fact have. It`s unchallenged "mission creep" by the police that will see us lose the right to own guns in the UK. I take it that those of you who can see no problem in this clip are completely happy with the way in which police now demand medical certification with the grant or renewal of firearms certificates.

It`s well worth going some online research to get a clearer idea of how the Birmingham gun trade actually worked. It was a seething cauldron of independent outworkers and specialists making the basic components to be finished elsewhere in the trade, often in the same building. Hammer guns such as yours were assembled from trade components made by a dozen different manufacturers and it was the intended price of the finished gun that determined it`s quality of finish. As an example one tradesman may have made nothing but trigger guards. Different qualites were available from him but basically they all looked the same unles something special was ordered. The same with screws, locks, hammers etc. One of the reasons that all the guns of a similar type to yours all look the same. One of the most prolific of Birmingham makers was Wrights who supplied finished guns to the trade, including Russell Hillsdons, Churchills, Charles Hellis and many others, and yet they are virtually unknown outside of the trade. Good luck with finding out more about your gun, you`ll enjoy exploring the Brummy gun trade.

Sadly, the preceeding comments illustrate how little most of us know about the law.

Ah Well, you must have been looking at a different film. I think you`d need to know what the coppers powers actually are before you can understand how much he`s abusing the law.

The ignorance of this copper is frightening. He`s literally making it up as he goes along.

The more I think about what you say, the more it seems likely. Heaven forfend then, that when BASC launched it`s transition to steel campaign, (Be that misguided or otherwise) could it be that some of the cartridge makers could have been being slightly disengenious about exactly what they knew about it? Surely not? We all know that BASC are inveterate liars and all cartridge manufacturers are paragons of virtue.

"Wildfowling Tales, Past and Present" by Allen Musselwhite. Published last week and available from Amazon for less than a tenner.

I`m slightly confused by this. Was it not Gamebore who, when the BASC/lead thing blew up recently, that stated that they did not have the product or capacity to help with any transition. Or have I got hold of the wrong end of this particular stick.

I do not share many of this blokes ponts of view, however I am deeply concerned about police misuse of powers. I wonder what the next step will be in relation to the private ownership of firearms?

Many thanks gents, especially Farmboy. I was aware of the thin brass case and thought that some of the US/Canadian manufacturers made a paper cased 3.25" ,but I did`nt realise that Eley made a 3.25 " paper case 12 bore cartridge. You learn something new every day! Thanks again.

Thank you gents. Harkom, thanks for that. I can find reference to 3 1/4" chambered 10 and 8 bores, but not 12. Do you remember where you saw them?

I thought it referred to Teresa. Her other half unexpectedly missing the pink, if you know what I mean.

Does anyone know anything about the 3 1/4" 12 bore cartridge? Not the modern 3 1/2 ".Google contains nothing that I can find. Developed between the wars, I`m aware of its existance but can find little else. I remember reading that, prior to a shooting trip to Canada in the 1930`s King George v (?) took delivery of a 3 1/4" chambered 12 bore specifically for wildfowling, and another contributor on PW mentioned almost having bought one. I have a vague recollection that the Canadian Imperial cartridge company made a conventional 3 1/4" 12 bore cartridge, rather than chamberless thin brass cased, but otherwise can find nothing. Does anyone know anything about it?

Just an observation. Smocks are notoroius for overheating since you can`t ventilate them adequately. If you buy a smock now you`ll find it very oncomfortable to wear until the weather turns really cold.

I`m less worried than many because I don`t watch, or read, the main stream media. Especially the BBC.

My apologies if you know this already. Brass case guns are often chamberless and since the intended brass cartridge wall is thinner than the contemporary paper cartridge the barrel bore size is often greater than the nominal 12 bore. Many require 11 or 10 bore wads to get decent obturation and they shoot best with the thin brass cases rather than modern plastic where the pattern can be poor for this reason. Brass case guns are often found in exceptionally good condition because they had very little use, for the above reason, after the thin brass cases became unobtainable after ww2. (?)

Sometimes called the Summer Teal.

How is a barrister supposed to have the faintest idea of what life is like for the working man?

It`s important that we all keep up the pressure on the police to compell them to get a set of uniform and common sense interpretations of the new Regulations so that countrywide enforcement is the same. We already have mission creep by the police with regard to medical notes and certificates. It is not the job of the police to interpret legislation themselves and we witnessed the heavy handed reaction from some forces who seem to have lost all touch with the common sense that the British police were once so famous for. If we`re not careful, one spin off from coronavirus will be the need to inform the police every time one goes shooting. Looked at logically, there can be fewer safer places than sitting alone in the middle of an isolated field, having driven there in a near hermetically sealed car on roads almost completely devoid of traffic.

My gall bladder blowing up triggered sepsis about eight weeks ago which was deeply unpleasant. Worryingly, it leaves you with a seriously depressed immune system which is no fun with coronavirus stalking the land.

Fairly generously cut and waist size is usually quite accurate.

Farmboy, I can`t add anything to the already comprehensive replies except that, I have a vague recollection that it was scratch built rather than using re-engineered 10 bore components, but my memory could be playing tricks. I wonder where it/they are now?