Yeah,I know. That's why they need to be nudging twelve. I don't think any lower would be much cop and that's why I was asking the question really. I had a supersport .25 when they came out and it was bang on twelve ft lbs with rhinos. It worked well at the ranges I have in mind. I also shot a few rabbits with it. The heavier pellets were useless though at twelve ft lb, I agree.