PaulABF Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Paul – the discount is still in place – PW members can join at the reduced rate for the first year exactly as before – we have no plans to change that. :look: Cheers Ian. Mine's up for renewal that's all. I'll still be sticking with SACS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Pinkfooty, you old smoothie! Good to see you’re still alive and well! :look: You still have that wonderful way with words too, suggesting that (without actually saying so, of course) anyone who doesn’t join BASC isn’t interested in the future of shooting – what a Sir Humphrey you would have made! I agree though, that things would be a lot worse if there had been no WAGBI/BASC – of course they would have been worse. Where we tend to disagree is that in my opinion, if BASC had done its job more robustly, we would be rather better off than we actually are now – but that’s just an opinion. David – as I have explained more fully on another forum, I have neither the time nor the inclination to send you a copy of the HUGE file I have here on SACS insurance – if you have any specific questions, I will be happy to answer them either in private or in the forum if you prefer. Like Pinkfootie, you have a wonderful way with words, but in fact SACS has been considering increasing our public liability to £10 million for some time – in fact since the institutions began to ask for it for shooting leases. In practical terms, the chances of that level of cover being needed are virtually nil, and since it does cost more to have the increased cover, we decided to wait until it became necessary to avoid unnecessary expense for our membership. It is now necessary, so we increased it – simple as that. Paul – the discount is still in place – PW members can join at the reduced rate for the first year exactly as before – we have no plans to change that. :look: Monkeyboots – I’m concerned about your friend where is seems we didn’t help him – can you PVT me with some more details and I’ll look into it? I certainly doesn’t sound like the sort of thing we would do, unless maybe it was before I became Director, in which case I wouldn’t know anything about it. Onwards and upwards…. I am sorry ,but I dont have your wonderful way with words ,so why dont you take your begging bowl and go and sit on the highest mountain peak in scotland and leave us old boys down here alone . I am fed up with sacs committed attacks on the basc . please just go away and sit on your mountain . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boromir Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 I am sorry ,but I dont have your wonderful way with words ,so why dont you take your begging bowl and go and sit on the highest mountain peak in scotland and leave us old boys down here alone . I am fed up with sacs committed attacks on the basc . please just go away and sit on your mountain . Harnser . OMFG Harnser read all the posts before Ianclarks 2nd post. Same old thing You moan about people bashing BASC but you find it alright to bash other organisations. Why BASC putting up the price again? Is it because they didnt get the support for there new building if they cant get donations lets raise the membership costs? Where are these millions there supposed to have? DavidBASC how much is it going up to? The great Firearms department does it all go on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 BFG BASC publish annual accounts, members can see where money is spent. Its also clear what BASC achieves as reports are regularly made in the shooting press and BASC website. I'm not too sure that's the case with SACS. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) OMFG Harnser read all the posts before Ianclarks 2nd post. Same old thing You moan about people bashing BASC but you find it alright to bash other organisations. Why BASC putting up the price again? Is it because they didnt get the support for there new building if they cant get donations lets raise the membership costs? Where are these millions there supposed to have? DavidBASC how much is it going up to? The great Firearms department does it all go on that? So ,who started this thread ? . Dont you think it a little bit provocative towards basc members or do you think the thread poster is trying to be the devils advocate . This thread is bound to be pulled as all the other sacs v basc threads . There is really no point to it . Harnser . Edited October 15, 2009 by Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonevo Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) :look: for all the info getting boring now............................... same old story zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Edited October 15, 2009 by jonevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boromir Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 So ,who started this thread ? . Dont you think it a little bit provocative towards basc members or do you think the thread poster is trying to be the devils advocate . This thread is bound to be pulled as all the other sacs v basc threads . There is really no point to it .Harnser . Its just an announcement like the updates BASC puts up here some times, isnt any other organisation allowed to do that other than BASC. Its you and others who have turned this into another BASC vs SACS thread. Some of you's seem to like to bully people into joining BASC by the sounds of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 No body is going to be bullied into joining an organisation. We are all big boys & girls and I am sure can make up our own minds. :blink: Like you say we are all allowed to post and express a view – and we are bound to have differences of opinion, that will always happen on forums won’ it? Let’s not get angry about it. To answer your questions, since the decision to build the new building was made in 2007, it has been made very clear time after time that none of the build money will be paid for from membership subscriptions, it will be paid for from sponsorship and fundraising. That is why, in part ,it took almost two years from 'yes we are going to build’ to the contractors arriving on site- we needed to get the money in! If you want more details about the build and the cost its all on the BASC web site, if you can’t find it let me know. :blink: As to price rises, BASC Council made a decision about 10 years ago, that instead of keeping subs the same for two – three years and then going for a larger price hike, they would increase subs by a smaller ammount every year, typically linked as close as possible to the rate of inflation plus any costs for additional operational projects. I do not know what price change there will be for 2010, but I suspect Full membership will go up by £2. I have been working with two other members of staff on a new membership pricing structure, so although Full membership will go up, I plan for other membership categories to go DOWN in price, such as gundog, airgun and syndicate. Others, like Senior Citizen for example will probably stay the same. As Ian has said and Pinkfotty eloquently stated, shooting would be in a much worse position if it were not for BASC. OK in hindsight anyone could look back and say ‘could have done better’ that’s easy isn’t it? Being there at the time making the decisions based on the evidence in front of you, negotiation with a hostile oppositions, doing the best you possibly can for all , that’s the tough bit. There will always be room for smaller organisations to offer insurances and some restricted level of services for a very low cost, like NGO, SACS, UCSW, and so on. But in all reality low costs result in low resources – nothing wrong with that, at all, but realistically lower resources limit how much you can really do and deliver. Have a look at the number of Government and allied body consultations that have been active this year that could have an effect on shooting, the press and radio stories against shooting, the ‘policy decisions’ by some police authorities on shooting, the Home Office review of firearms guidance, the ACPO review of licensing best practice and so on – there have been loads, but with all respect how many of them have been dealt with and responded to formally by the smaller organisations, few. Again these is nothing wrong with that – this is not me ‘having a go’ at the smaller orgs, just trying to make a point that it is ‘horses for courses’ BASC had the resources to keep on delivering at high level and the more member we get the more resources we have. I have no doubt in my mind that BASC is the leading shooting organisation in the UK that will keep on delivering to keep shooting as safe as possible for all of us. But as an individual shooter, make your own choice which organisation you wish to support. :blink: David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) David, Can I ask a question over BASC Insurance? As a full member through my wildfowling club are we covered for all the other areas such as liabilty insurance for your gundog? The only reason I am asking is a friend of mines dog bolted after a cat the other day. The cat ran across a road and the dog followed. The dog hit the side of a passing car and dented the door. The dog apart from being dazed and a cut lip and tongye was fine. The driver of the car was very apologetic and wasn't worried about the car. But if the driver had wanted to claim is this the sort of thing that is covered? Cheers Martin Edit, Sorry I should have mentioned that the dogs owner is also a paid up member of BASC again through the wildfowling club. Edited October 16, 2009 by MC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 can't see it excluded in the key facts document but I'd bet they would check if the dog was insured as if so thats where the claim ought to be directed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 All BASC members are covered where ever they go for the activities listed in the policy document. So to take your gundog scenario..al4x is spot on, if the dog was covered under its own policy (pet insurance) then that is where the claim would go in the first instance. Gundog working & training is covered under the BASC policy – however, and this is very important, if the dog was simply being walked, or sitting in the gardens etc there is no cover. The dog would only be covered if the accident happened when he was out working or being trained. We get about half a dozen claims each year dog related. On all claim forms there is a little box where you write down what happened. The funniest dog claim we ever had was the following: My dog had a bad habit of chewing the seats in my car – so I left him in my friends’ car, and he destroyed all of the seats, the headlining and the steering wheel. :blink: David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Did you pay? :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Yes! Although we suggested that the guy kept his dog in a dog box in the future. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Would'nt the funds raised by fundraising and sponsership be better spent on defending our sport rather than investing in real estate?-does the BASC realy need a new building?-just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkfooty Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Wouldn't the funds raised by fundraising and sponsorship be better spent on defending our sport rather than investing in real estate?-does the BASC really need a new building?-just wondering. The thousands of members who donated to the specific appeal for that purpose obviously thought so. Unfortunately there seems to be a myth around that BASC staff work in palatial accommodation. As anyone who has actually taken the trouble to visit BASC HQ knows, the staff work in extremely cramped and second-rate conditions in a converted mill. The new building will improve that slightly but - much more importantly - will improve the communications capacity of the organisation in a way that is totally essential in order to defend our sport as Bruno demands. We live in the 21st century. Our opponents live in the 21st century and we can only fight them by matching their use of the communications technology of the 21st century. Edited October 17, 2009 by Pinkfooty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I am a BASC member. Before I joined I did some thorough research including reading the insurance policy document freely available to all on the BASC website. I see no such thing on Scottish Association for Country Sports site? I worry when the chap won't let us see this policy document. How as consumers can we compare? Just my idle thought for the evening....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Would'nt the funds raised by fundraising and sponsership be better spent on defending our sport rather than investing in real estate?-does the BASC realy need a new building?-just wondering. Yes, it certainly does. I work with media on a daily basis in my day job. You need to be professional and working from a portacabin just doesn't get your image right. There are many other reasons which I won't bore you with but, IMHO, we need to be as or more professional as the 'anti's in our communication with the media and public. So investing in 'real'estate' is a vital part of what they need to do. Edited October 17, 2009 by Glenshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) The thousands of members who donated to the specific appeal for that purpose obviously thought so. Unfortunately there seems to be a myth around that BASC staff work in palatial accommodation. As anyone who has actually taken the trouble to visit BASC HQ knows, the staff work in extremely cramped and second-rate conditions in a converted mill. The new building will improve that slightly but - much more importantly - will improve the communications capacity of the organisation in a way that is totally essential in order to defend our sport as Bruno demands. We live in the 21st century. Our opponents live in the 21st century and we can only fight them by matching their use of the communications technology of the 21st century. Nothing to do with the topic really, allthough i do support BASC I used to fish behind Marford Mill some 35 odd years ago on the river Alyn, it was WAGBI then,i actually had the opportunity to visit the WAGBI office then. I used to stay at my cousins farm a few 100yds down the road.Its a great pity the old mill over the road isn't in the same condition as the BASC office's. Nowt Wrong with BASC Edited October 18, 2009 by Dougy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanClark Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Just last night I was talking to a couple of guys of my own age (60s) that I used to shoot a lot with. There were both of the same opinion - "We have seen the best of shooting in this country. The youngsters of today and tomorrow will never have the sport we had!" Sorry guys, I just cannot accept that. It is up to us to ensure that future generations do have the same opportunities as we had. I couldn't agree more, and although I was being lighthearted, I meant what I said - it is good to know that men like you are still fighting our corner, as you have always done. You will know, as I do, that a great deal of the real pressure on shooting comes from the RSPB and their hit men, who I laughingly call the 'Provisional Raptor Study Groups', and it is done behind closed doors, in all of the places where they have cleverly infiltrated their own people over the years. I nearly choked on Saturday morning as I was driving to a shoot - on the radio, Prof. Des Thomson, one of the SNH top advisors on raptors, said on live radio that 'sparrowhawks are a declining species....' With people like him in positions like that, we have much to do! Let's concentrate on working together and see what we can achieve? Best regards Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud9 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 how much is SACS i shoot with air rifles at the minute so i was going to go with BASA but now phil from this forum has took me out on his land and let me try the 17hmr and the 22rimfire im going to need to be covered for FAC also as im thinking of applying for my FAC, been on the SACS site no prices on there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatcatsplat Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Just as a professional aside, to take the liability from 5M to 10M would probably cost about 25 to 50p difference per member - If the year has gone claim free (or the Underwriter is in a reasonable profit), they will probably chuck it in for free - Liability, like medical coverage is operated on a "ground up" basis, so you pay from 1st penny upwards - As Mungler said, there are few losses that ever breach the 1M mark, let alone the 5 or 10M bracket - The UK is not quite as litigious as some other countries and where we are the awards are certainly not as high. What that means is that the insurer rates in tranches - 1st 25K, 25k to 100K, 100K to 250K etc etc. If you're buying in bulk, like BASC, SACS etc are, then you do get a bit of buyer power - The current insurance market is very, very soft when it comes to profitable business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I would agree the market is pretty soft at the moment, so this helps, so increasing the limit of cover will probably have cost nothing at all like you say – which is great. Association polices tend to be sold as a group policy to cover all the members at present, plus a generous level of flexibility to account for growth during the premium year. The underwriter will take into account the current loss ratio of the policy (i.e. claims made against premium paid) and will also need to take into account the reserves from past years claims. Although most claims in shooting related accidents are property damage, which are typically very quick and easy to settle, there are some injury claims. Injury claims can roll on for a few years, the more severe the injury (apart from death obviously) the longer they can take to settle, so the number of serious injury claims on reserve and not yet settled will also have an impact. Interestingly, because there are not that many shooting related accidents per year (about one per 2000 active shooters) there are not that many statistics that an underwriter can base a decision on. Although the incident rate is low and indeed the average cost per claim is low (ish) shooting has the potential for ‘disaster claims’ that would wipe out a premium! Hence you will find there are relatively few underwriters who will cover shooting. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatcatsplat Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Not too sure of the vailidity of your last sentence David - I reckon there are plenty out there with holiday homes in the country or connections to tweed that would tuck it away somewhere purely for the kudos!! Aside from that, 150,000 (as a guess) members x £10 or so a head, less broker's commissions (would assume a fee is paid, rather than percentile commissions), would give a reasonably steady premium base to take any hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 The per capita cost of our policy is itemised in the Key Facts document on the web , currently it works out at £10.50. But as I have said before we have seen the first shooting claim (that I know of) in the UK for over £1m. Add this to the now not too uncommon claims for £100k plus etc and I am sure you can see the potential for the loss ratio to go above 100% My thoughts are, that with the larger organisations such as BASC or the CA for example, where the premiums paid will be relatively high so will have a ‘buffer effect’ against larger claims which individually come near to the yearly premium. However, I also think it is a bit of a ‘time bomb’ for the smaller organisations who’s premiums may be 10% or less than that paid by BASC or the CA, one £20k claim (not unusual) would more than wipe out the premium and may well make renewal of said premium an interesting exercise! Having said all that, what we can very clearly see from the very low incidence of shooting insurance claims, is that shooting is very safe indeed. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanClark Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Sorry about the old clunky website, Cloud - it's under reconstruction. Full membership of SACS costs £30 per year - as a PW member you will get a discout to £22 for your first year - just give us a ring on 01698 885206 and you can do the whole thing over the phone in a couple of minutes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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