Compulsory Testing

[fortune82]

I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding compulsory testing before getting a SGC but several events over the last few years have got me thinking.

 

Basically I have come across several people shooting over the last couple of years who have all the gear but clearly no idea at all.

 

One tried to shoot a plug of mud from the barrel of his 12 bore!

 

Another fired the first barrel of his gun at a clay and then turned around to talk to those spectating whilst pointing the second barrel at everyones heads and chests!

 

A third one took a semi auto from his car, walked to his peg (beaters day) and without doing anything ie loading the gun, fired 2 shots at a pheasant. At the end of the drive he then applied the safety catch and put the gun back in the car before recieving his marching orders from the keeper. Worrying thing is this guy had been shooting 40 odd years!

 

I know BASC are against any more legislation etc but suerly with idiots like this able to get a SGC with no testing it could be a matter of life and death?

[Chard]

I do tend to agree with you. When I first started shooting 5 years or so ago, I was quite surprised that I was "let loose" with a shotgun with very little formal training. This was for clay shooting, where I had at least (voluntarily) had a few lessons with a coach. I presume that if I had started off in game shooting or pigeon shooting, I could have hit the fields with no training at all

 

I'm not a big fan of loads of legislation, but this situation does seem surprisingly lax

[Imperfection]

I can sort of agree with you with the safety sense,but i dont think that it wouldnt stop there.It wouldnt take much for them to licence shotguns the same as firearms in that you would have to apply to the rozzers before buying and even perhaps be limited to amount of cartridges held.Just remember-it was only a few decades ago that shotgun certs were bought over the counter at the post office!

[Heladoxa]

I bought my first gun when I was 16. The license was 5 bob and you just went and bought one. The gun was a Webley single barrel, bolt action .410. I forget how much, but I know I could not afford a slip as well so I just tucked it under my arm and walked home. But in those days you could play with your airgun in the street. Hey Ho :nostalgia:

[fortune82]

I can sort of agree with you with the safety sense,but i dont think that it wouldnt stop there.It wouldnt take much for them to licence shotguns the same as firearms in that you would have to apply to the rozzers before buying and even perhaps be limited to amount of cartridges held.Just remember-it was only a few decades ago that shotgun certs were bought over the counter at the post office!

 

At the end of the day if you are shot with a shotgun at close range by an idiot you will probably die! I have seen far too many people who dont have a clue of late. At the end of the day would licensing more like an FAC be a bad thing? If you have a reason and a use then you would get it!

[Imperfection]

At the end of the day if you are shot with a shotgun at close range by an idiot you will probably die! I have seen far too many people who dont have a clue of late. At the end of the day would licensing more like an FAC be a bad thing? If you have a reason and a use then you would get it!

 

I understand what you're saying,but the sort of incidents your talking about are fortunately very few and far between.At a clay ground for example,people tend to look out for each other so if theres an unsafe shot attending-they will be told.

[wymberley]

Hi,

I would rather see it done voluntarily with our associations involved, but it will happen sooner or later. It won't be because of the reasoning in the above posts but simply because we are "in Europe" where it's already common practise. Just as in many other areas, we are going to have to conform. Ask any shooting member of the armed forcess who has served in, say, Germany, for example, and they will confirm that ( excluding target shooting) before you can apply for a certificate you will have to obtain a hunting licence.

Cheers

PS Better add I'm talking residents and not visitors

[Ozzy Fudd]

ive said this before, that i reckon there should be a course/test, covering everything from gun handling, safety, care, etc, (think of weapons handling tests in the military), but there should also be a bit more on quarry lists, suitable calibre's for quarry, etc, and what the kill zones are.

 

chards right, when i got my first licence (two 12ga's and a .22lr) i had fired a shotgun only 3 or 4 times before in my life. luckily id been in the cadets at school, had been on the shooting team, weapons handling instructor, helped at ranges, etc, so i wasnt a complete noob when it came to guns, but i still had to learn alot about hunting on my own - can still remember the first time i bought shotgun carts and had to ask what would be best cos i hadnt a clue about the numbers

[bothbarrels]

I don't think it would be a bad idea for prospective new liscence owners to have to attend some sort of gun saftey and awareness course, with instruction on handling,saftey, shooting etiquette, quarry identification & seasons, if someone is serious about having a gun then they wouldn't see it as a negative issue, just a good kickstart into our sport.

 

BB

[wymberley]

I don't think it would be a bad idea for prospective new liscence owners to have to attend some sort of gun saftey and awareness course, with instruction on handling,saftey, shooting etiquette, quarry identification & seasons, if someone is serious about having a gun then they wouldn't see it as a negative issue, just a good kickstart into our sport.

 

BB

Something like the BASC Proficiency Award Scheme perhaps which was originally intended to cover shotguns, rifles and air rifles although the latter two failed to materialize.

Cheers

[Dunkield]

You can't teach common sense.

[MC]

You can't teach common sense.

 

 

Amen to that

[wymberley]

You can't teach common sense.

My first gun licence was 10 bob in the post office. To take your point of view to a logical conclusion, we should revert to that original facility in order to obtain a driving licence.

[al4x]

absolutely and it would put an obstacle in the way to people who teach their kids to shoot. There is no substitute to growing up round guns and being taught safety from an early age. I do see things that make me shudder but rarely, possibly more emphasis should be placed on prior experience before issuing tickets but its a catch 22 you have to use a gun to learn and be taught. Personally I have reservations of people with no rifle experience gaining a centrefire at initial grant but it happens and if you can talk the talk without any mentoring or anything. That scares me more than most issues with shotguns, if you grow up going beating etc you see enough to know how to behave and what is safe and what isn't.

[Nicky T]

Interestingly I was down at Worsley yesterday and Andy the Manager down there mentioned that they are working in conjunction with Greater Manchester Police on a new scheme whereby anyone who joins the club and signs up to a 5 session course of lessons with one of their coaches is issued a certificate to say that they are competent and safe when it comes to handling a shotgun

 

Apparently the Police look favourably on anyone with this certificate, who then later applies for a SGC.

 

Whilst you cannot teach common sense, you can provide new shooters with vital information to ensure that they are as safe as possible.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Nicky T

[wymberley]

absolutely and it would put an obstacle in the way to people who teach their kids to shoot. There is no substitute to growing up round guns and being taught safety from an early age. I do see things that make me shudder but rarely, possibly more emphasis should be placed on prior experience before issuing tickets but its a catch 22 you have to use a gun to learn and be taught. Personally I have reservations of people with no rifle experience gaining a centrefire at initial grant but it happens and if you can talk the talk without any mentoring or anything. That scares me more than most issues with shotguns, if you grow up going beating etc you see enough to know how to behave and what is safe and what isn't.

 

Well said. In my first post I mentioned voluntary. Often now many new shooters do not have that family background. This is one of the reasons that BASC introduced the PAS. A voluntary scheme such as that is no impediment to people teaching their kids. This is simply because it has always been possible to sit the assessment without doing the course. I have seen many proud youngsters pass and show their certificates and badges to even prouder parents.

Cheers

[MC]

Interestingly I was down at Worsley yesterday and Andy the Manager down there mentioned that they are working in conjunction with Greater Manchester Police on a new scheme whereby anyone who joins the club and signs up to a 5 session course of lessons with one of their coaches is issued a certificate to say that they are competent and safe when it comes to handling a shotgun

 

Whilst you cannot teach common sense, you can provide new shooters with vital information to ensure that they are as safe as possible.

 

 

That is exactly how Home Office approved Rifle clubs do it. You join on a probationary period usually 3 or 6 months and it that time you are mentored in handling firearms and ammunition and also safety and range ettiquete. After that time you then apply for full membership and the club officers will countersign your FAC application.

 

The NRA also do the same at Bisley

 

I have to say it wouldn't be a bad thing, the problem being is that all the people who are unsafe now will still be unsafe as they would probably get grandfather rights and not have to do the test.

 

One of the biggest problems I see with gun handling issues these days are things like Paintball and airsoft where it is deemed as OK and acceptable to point guns at people and shoot at other people. Gun handling should be instilled and imprinted on the brain.

 

I was taught at a very early age never point ANY gun at ANYTHING you don't want to destroy. I can still remember getting the ####ing of my life for firing a cap gun at my brother.

 

One of the best things I saw when first starting shooting was a demonstration using various guns fired at 2 litre plastic bottles full of water. The results of that especially a 12 bore at about 10 feet stay etched on your brain for ever.

[dunganick]

The problem is: the government would never set this up, so a good meaning organisation will come along and provide a course that tries to teach people the basics. The government will see it and the potential virtues of it and before you know it they impose it as required (even though they cant... but they will make it a 'force policy'). But who decides if these people are qualified? Having done a reasonable amount of target shooting with several clubs i know what sort of people end up in these sort of positions of 'power' and whilst they may play everything by the book, they are often simply imposing their own personal gripes/views on young impressionable shooters.

 

At the end of it you end up with yet another financial hurdle which still wont stop an idiot shooting himself/other people, but will cost me and you money to proove to a self appointed expert that we are capable.

 

Like the DSC it is a good idea and is setup with the best of intentions, but how the government would likely use it is incorrectly and for shooters like myself on very tight budgets it is a hurdle i cant afford to jump (even though i would actually like to do the DSC1)

 

I agree with MC and Stuart, its Common sense that is required. Its the FEO's job to judge if we posses common sense.

[Ballymac]

Be careful what you wish for...

[al4x]

the problem is how do you say to an FEO we're setting up a course to educate new shooters but we don't think all new shooters should have to do it. Its very difficult and like the DSC some FEO's will think it seems such a good idea we'll make it compulsory. Like MC some of the worst examples I could name are very old guys who have shot all their lives who would in theory be exempt. On another side shooting is actually a past time with very few accidents its just the kind of accidents they are makes them very news worthy. Fundamentally though its something that takes years of experience to master and doing a course won't help when someone makes the wrong last minute decision to pull the trigger.

 

I was out a couple of weeks ago on a hare shoot, in the fog on new ground and that was scary. I could see about 30 yards so just to the gun next to me. With 50 people out it went fine but it really sharpened you about safety when you can't see far and well its not something you'd want to find someone inexperienced and a bit hyped up was doing!

[HDAV]

Interesting, I enquired about the BASC safe shot programme while waiting for my SGC to be told it's only really done at game fairs....I was lucky enough to get an SGC hassle free I can see how a course would help but most responsible people will get lessons etc wont just get a cert buy a gun and go trying to shoot stuff. I have a Class one power boat liscence very enjoying 2 day course, not a legal requirement but an insurance requirement. NOw if there was a bigger push to have insurance (as i beleive in germany) and for people to have to show it, then insurance companies can insist on training as they do with watercraft. Nothing stops you buying a boat of any size with any size engine and going to sea! but trying to launch without insurance is hard!

 

The problem is that what should be a cheap often run course will become expensive and off putting I was very happy with the way my local police dealt with my application. I can see the benefits of the course but while shooting is still so taboo in the general population I cant see a change in the law being a benefit. I think its down to everyone involved to make sure everyone is as safe as possible.

 

The cost of an SGC isnt the SGC its self but the cabinet, gun, equimpment etc that goes with it! I know some dealers offer courses when buying new guns (more expensive ones) but I dont know what the take up is or what level of safety training they get. As someone who is new to shooting and without a shooting family I had a lot learn and quickly.

[fortune82]

I agree you cannot teach common sense but you can teach basic safety. A gun is a lethal weapon and people should be trained in its safe use. Cars are a lethal weapon and we would not think twice about letting anyone apply for a driving licence with no prior experience!

 

Obviously the best way to learn about safety etc is to be surrounded by it from an early age but there are a lot of people now who have taken up shooting in later life with no experience.

 

If you have a valid rason for wanting a gun and are keen enough a compulsory test would be nothing to worry about.

[Mr_Logic]

The problem is: the government would never set this up, so a good meaning organisation will come along and provide a course that tries to teach people the basics. The government will see it and the potential virtues of it and before you know it they impose it as required (even though they cant... but they will make it a 'force policy'). But who decides if these people are qualified? Having done a reasonable amount of target shooting with several clubs i know what sort of people end up in these sort of positions of 'power' and whilst they may play everything by the book, they are often simply imposing their own personal gripes/views on young impressionable shooters.

 

At the end of it you end up with yet another financial hurdle which still wont stop an idiot shooting himself/other people, but will cost me and you money to proove to a self appointed expert that we are capable.

 

Like the DSC it is a good idea and is setup with the best of intentions, but how the government would likely use it is incorrectly and for shooters like myself on very tight budgets it is a hurdle i cant afford to jump (even though i would actually like to do the DSC1)

 

I agree with MC and Stuart, its Common sense that is required. Its the FEO's job to judge if we posses common sense.

It is illegal for a Police force to set a policy. The Firearms Acts are very clear that the licensing authority must consider each case on its own merits. This hasn't been noticed by many Forces who think they can do what they like, but this is NOT The case. One of these days I must take them to court over it...

[Dunkield]

My first gun licence was 10 bob in the post office. To take your point of view to a logical conclusion, we should revert to that original facility in order to obtain a driving licence.

Are you saying people who have passed their driving tests never have accidents then?

[RC45]

Something like the BASC Proficiency Award Scheme perhaps which was originally intended to cover shotguns, rifles and air rifles although the latter two failed to materialize.

Cheers

But if you have to be a BASC member to do this Proficiency scheme, it smacks of a monopoly. I think it should be part of the NRA Certificate of Competance as this is already in place. It would also allow shooters the option of going to Bisley and shoot with bigger calibres. There should be a sceme where all clubs, be it clays or targets, can register their coaches so this can be done efficiently.

 

How about all the organisations getting together with this Certificate of Competancy and offering to take it to schools and train the kids, get them involved when they are young and for them to gain a certificate in the safe handling of firearms.

 

If we educate the kids, they will educate their parents.

 

Anyone else?