best not carry an orange juice carton

[Greymaster]

Im always of the opinion that if a copper gives you an instruction, you follow it? Ok, maybe he was a bit over the top but at the end of the day she gave him a reason to slap her (they say it's an accepted method?) and then when she didn't back off he stepped it up a bit.

 

There's a simple rule to stick to in these situations... Respect the person in authority. If she'd have done as she was told she wouldn't have been whacked, end of story!

 

Did you see The Times article based on the FOI request. It disclosed that there are over 3,000 coppers still serving who have criminal records for such things as violent assault, theft, drunk and disorderly, conspiracy, money laundering, stealing evidence (drugs), pimping, sex on duty etc.

 

Is it this band of outlaw coppers you automatically respect, or some other bunch.

 

Coppers are meant to be citizens in uniform. We, as fellow citizens, automatically deserve to be treated with respect going about our lawful business, and fundamentally, that means being free. There is a whole infrastructure set up costing millions of pounds a year to run in every police force in the land, it is called Professional Standards. This exists for the very simple reason that there is nothing automatic about plod which makes them objective, fair and reasonable and fit to enforce the law.

 

When given an instruction by any other person I instinctively analyse whether they are being fair and is it reasonable to observe said "request". A "Please" helps. When was the last time a copper actually said "please" to you and meant it?

[Kent Militia]

I'm not defending the bloke, if what else has been written about him is true then yes he sounds like a thug and he should be dealt with in the correct manner, but what you think is reasonable sitting behind a computer safe and sound, and what he thought was reasonable faced with a few thousand people and some screaming banshee is his face, possibly with a carton full of ammonia, are two completely different things.

 

I wasn't defending the girl either, I was just voicing my dissent against police brutality. The girl for all i care could be a mentally unstable person and even though I agree that the police officer had to subdue her in some way, I think he went in heavy handedly.

 

Incidently I do agree with the shoot to kill policy for armed police agaisnt suspects. Recently people have been saying that there should be a non-lethal force policy to avoid killing peope that pull a gun on police, however I think that if you as a person and a police officer feel your life is in immediate danger you should use all means necessary including lethal force to subdue them.

 

From the example above you can see I am not a police hating person but I do not condone brutality or excess violence used by police to subdue a suspect. If the person you are arrestig is so terrible, let them get violent and don't retaliate, more avidence against them in court, so in a way they are digging their own grave.

[nommo]

I too was troubled by some of the responses to this thread.

 

Firstly - if this girl was a threat - why wasn't she restrained rather than beaten?

 

Secondly - if I remember rightly this particular protest was about the innocent guy being brutalised and killed the previous day.

 

Thirdly - the police were strangely vocal prior to the protests about being 'up for it' - What was that about? Trying to scare off the peaceful non-shouty, non-carton wielding protesters?

 

Fourthly - just because someone is in uniform, tooled up and scary looking doesn't mean you should do everything they say - we are not in China.

 

It is extra worrying to read the 'right wing' views on here. Do you think citizens would continue to be allowed to posses firearms in a police state?

Edited April 2, 2010 by nommo

[shot shot]

I too was troubled by some of the responses to this thread.

 

Firstly - if this girl was a threat - why wasn't she restrained rather than beaten?

 

Secondly - if I remember rightly this particular protest was about the innocent guy being brutalised and killed the previous day.

 

Thirdly - the police were strangely vocal prior to the protests about being 'up for it' - What was that about? Trying to scare off the peaceful non-shouty, non-carton wielding protesters?

 

Fourthly - just because someone is in uniform, tooled up and scary looking doesn't mean you should do everything they say - we are not in China.

It is extra worrying to read the 'right wing' views on here. Do you think citizens would continue to be allowed to posses firearms in a police state?

psss, china is left wing...

[DSPUK]

Good job she wasn't carrying a chair leg or naked or in bed as she would be dead now -

 

dave

[Bagsy]

There are good and bad in all organisations and the police are no different. But some on the forum seem to display what can only be described as a very unhealthy dislike of 'everything police'.

 

It's cringe-worthy to say the least.

[nommo]

psss, china is left wing...

 

When it gets to the extremes of control of the masses - there is no difference between left and right - it's a dictatorship. But I wasn't saying China was right wing, that was a reference to Tienamen Sq.

[Fatcatsplat]

For what it's worth, i think the copper was probably getting years of pent up rage and angst out of his system from being called Smellie all his life

[mossy835]

about right, they cant tell stork from butter.

[nommo]

Thats funny. The thing I learned from martial art training was to avoid a fight if you could, though should you be unable to avoid the fight then yes, get in there first, and be harder and faster than your attacker. Also only stop when you know you can get away from the situation with out them coming after you.

 

Yer - my training was similar - avoid fights - you might do serious damage or get hurt. Do not strike first - if you are attacked - block and counter.

 

But also - avoid beating up women - even if they call you names...

[woodcock11]

There are good and bad in all organisations and the police are no different. But some on the forum seem to display what can only be described as a very unhealthy dislike of 'everything police'.

 

It's cringe-worthy to say the least.

 

 

No I have consistently said that I defend and support the police service. 99% of them do a brilliant job in often tricky circumstances.

 

The thing is that this run in between Sergeant Delroy Smellie and this young lady is not a one-off. Either the BBC or ITN put together a montage of shots from official overhead CCTV surveillance cameras showing Sergeant Smellie roaming the area looking for and getting involved in trouble in a number of different places - wherever he was "there just happened to be trouble". This run in and beating up of this young lady is just one in a series of incidents. She may not be whiter than white and 100% innocent but that is not the point

 

What is surprising is that no-one who is trying to defend Sergeant Smellie has made any attempt to explain why he had removed his serial identification numbers and badges of rank from his uniform jacket. This is against standing police orders and it makes it seem pretty obvious that he was intent on going out on a rumble without being identified.

 

I just hope that any of you guys who are out on a spot of lawful pigeon or vermin shooting are not confronted by Sergeant Smellie after a do-good member of the public has called in to say they have seen armed terrorists in cammo out and about in the countryside. Dont come bleating to me about it!

 

In order for the police to retain our respect -and that is vital if we are to avoid anarchy - it is vital to weed out those who are either corrupt or who behave like thugs or in anyway abuse their position. We cannot give carte blanche to anyone, whatever they do , merely because they are wearing a police uniform.

 

I hope he is relegated to counting traffic cones or something else mindcrushingly boring for the rest of his police career.

[Shuck.]

For what it's worth, i think the copper was probably getting years of pent up rage and angst out of his system from being called Smellie all his life

 

This

 

How did you lot see the video as I can't find one on the OP

 

EDIT: found it on youtube nevermind

Edited April 2, 2010 by Shuck.

[Breastman]

I have just re-watched the clip (i was working off memory previously) and to describe what happened as police brutality is a joke! He clips her with the back of his hand, and then hits her, not particularly hard, once on the thigh with his baton Wow. If you think this is OTT i suggest you never attend any derby football matches or go into a city centre on a Friday or Saturday night as if you shout at the Police in the way she did you'll recieve a lot, lot worse!

 

Please, watch again (note the sound has been taken off so that the clip could be broadcast without breaking the obscene language code )

 

 

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

 

Mark

Edited April 2, 2010 by Breastman

[nommo]

This

 

How did you lot see the video as I can't find one on the OP

 

EDIT: found it on youtube nevermind

 

Read all abaaaaat it, read all abaaaaat it

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/g20

 

The actual video is here to save you looking too long...

[woodcock11]

This

 

How did you lot see the video as I can't find one on the OP

 

 

Try here

 

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/apr/14/g20-police-action-tomlinson-memorial

 

Sergeat Delroy Smith is the one without any numbers on his epauletes [ they seem to be covered over] who first back slaps the girls with his hand/arm and then who thumps the girl with his baton [just drawn specially] the girl with the sealed juice carton - she is not exactly very big is she - what a "hero" he is!!! All the other police officers clearly have their serial numbers showing on their uniform jackets as is standard procedure.

 

Explain that one Sergeant Smellie - why no serial numbers - also interesting to note the Court that acquitted him was without any form of jury.

 

Lets hope the Met will launch an independent disciplinary enquiry, headed by senoir officers from another force.

[Nial]

These are the 9 rules Robert Peel defined when he first established an official police force....

 

1) The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

2) The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

3) Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

4) The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

5) Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

6) Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

7) Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

8) Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

9) The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

 

 

2, 4, 6 & 7 are interesting wrt this thread.

 

 

Nial

[nommo]

BTW - on left and right: http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

 

When I said 'right wing' I should have said authoritarian.

[njc110381]

Did you see The Times article based on the FOI request. It disclosed that there are over 3,000 coppers still serving who have criminal records for such things as violent assault, theft, drunk and disorderly, conspiracy, money laundering, stealing evidence (drugs), pimping, sex on duty etc.

 

Is it this band of outlaw coppers you automatically respect, or some other bunch.

 

When was the last time a copper actually said "please" to you and meant it?

 

 

Answer to the first part... There are bad apples in any job. I have a bad criminal record and a FAC but I don't plan on shooting anyone. People change. Do you know how long ago these things happened? Perhaps they decided they'd had enough of being bad and wanted to give a bit back? Ok, so this is the ideal answer and not all coppers are good guys, but do you really believe that people can't change or that most police officers are power freaks?

 

Answer to "When was the last time a copper actually said "please" to you and meant it?". Well actually the last time I dealt with one! Our MOT on the car had run out (my bad) and I didn't realise. I got pulled over, had a polite conversation with him and he let me on my way telling me to check up on it and get it done if need be. No fine, no rudeness, just a polite conversation that ended in a fair manner (he could have booked me but chose not to).

 

To the people who find the police rude and hard, consider that they may be reacting to the response you give initially? If you give them a look that says "oh great, what the **** do you want?" then they're not going to feel at ease with you and will take the offensive to remain in control. Every time I see a copper I smile and chat, just like I do if anyone else approaches me and speaks to me. It's the basic rule of getting on well in life and avoiding trouble, and on top of that it's just polite!

 

That woman went in first. The copper looked to me like he pushed her away and she came back so he defended himself. Then she was back again and got the baton! Mental note to self - If someone gently pushes you away take the hint because every time you come back they will send you away just a little bit harder than the last time. I admit he was a bit over the top but in the situation it's not always easy to read what's coming. It's been said that protesters like to put bleach in cartons like the one she had? Perhaps that thought clouded his judgement a bit? Coppers are human, they can make mistakes when faced with an instant decision just like you or I. If you were in that situation knowing that there may be a chance you could get bleach in your eyes what would you do? Neutralise that threat or stand around to find out what was coming next?

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again, if she'd have done as she was told in the first place none of this would have happened. The copper may have made a bad decision but if she hadn't have pushed him the whole thing could have been avoided! I don't believe that people put in unstable environments should be punished for the mistakes they make. If he'd of hammered her to the floor and gave her a kicking then that's brutal, but as it was he was just a little harder than maybe he needed to be. Oh well, she didn't get badly hurt and learned a lesson from it!

 

EDIT... For all the people who chat about dictatorships. If she'd have done that in one of these counties the chances are she would have been shot. Now that is what I would consider harsh!

Edited April 2, 2010 by njc110381