Old hammer guns

[njc110381]

Right chaps. My Browning BPS has gone off with its new owner and I want something more traditional. I'm thinking a SBS, but do I go for a hammer gun?!

 

I love the look of them, but how reliable are they? The one I'm looking at is English (sorry British!), 30" tubes, 2.5" chamber non ejector with nitro proof. It looks like a pretty gun but having never been near anything like this before I don't know what to make of it! How reliable are they? I'd expect it to need more attention than a modern gun so from that point of view how easy are they to fix if they break? I don't suppose it will get used a lot, maybe a few clays and the odd Crow or Pigeon day, but it will be my only shotgun apart from the combi.

 

I'm not sure it's the right choice but I've fallen in love with the old lump. It looks so much better than a modern gun.

[pbickerd]

They do look great don't they. I've been fancying one myself. I will be watching this thread

[Shuck.]

Get yourself a good book about it, think I have one somewhere, I'll post up the title if I find it.

 

Not something to rush into if you're a novice to hammerguns, a LOT of things to watch out for!

Edited May 27, 2010 by Shuck.

[RC45]

Buy from a dealer like Francis Lovell, they will look after you.

 

Phil

[wymberley]

Hi,

Old engineering saying:

The reliability of any mechanism is indirectly proportional to the number of moving parts.

I have to say that I think the following spoils the look of the gun, but from a safety point of view the correct way to uncock is to open the gun first. You can't do this unless you have the top lever bent to clear the RH hammer if necessary. I offer no comment.

Cheers

Edited May 27, 2010 by wymberley

[Cumbrian]

You may well find that your sight picture is confused by the cocked hammers appearing just in front of your nose, so to speak. I believe some guns had hammers that lay out of sight when cocked but I would have thought that simply lengthened the lock time and added an extra problem. Lovely things, however, especially for those of us who grew up with nothing else to look at by way of shotguns.

[arjimlad]

The hammergun is a useful tool.

 

Unlike the "hammerless" gun, it can be held closed but not cocked. I think this is pretty safe compared to a trigger blocking safety catch.

 

Most later guns have the locks set up so that the hammers cannot impact the strikers unless the trigger is also pulled.

 

Practically, they are slower to load due to the need to manually cock each hammer. This means that you'd be at a disadvantage on a flush or on a hot peg on a driven day, compared with a hammerless ejector. It does make those fast reloads & third birds more memorable however !

 

I agree that it's right that they should be opened before de-cocking, so you need to check that the right hammer does not get in the way of the top lever. Most guns are OK on this though especially later ones.

 

If you like it and it is up to the job, buy it and shoot it for a bit to see what you think. I doubt you'd lose much if you pay the right price and have to sell it on later.

[pigglet]

Bought one last year on a whim off here and absolutely love it! I used it pretty much exclusively last season. On my shoot which is a walk one stand one affair where I prbably shoot between 7-12 birds, using the hammer gun has made no real difference to my bag. The time it takes to re-load is hardly much longer than for a hamerless non ejector. You soon get used to the routine of loading and cocking as you mount the gun. It is a joy to own and use. Mines about 140 years old and is of the rotary underlever design. This means I can open the gun before de-cocking the hammers.

 

Just get it. They are going up in value

 

 

Mine

 

http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p154/pi...omas%20Jackson/

[Blackpowder]

I have shot with an old Army and Navy(K Quality) which I assume means keeper quality hammer gun for most of my shooting life. Cost £15 in 1959 , maintainance 3d around 1 1/2 pence for a striker spring. Many people consider a hammer gun slow to shoot, in practice I found I was as quick in reloading as someone with the cheaper type of over and under which takes some effort to open and cock action an ejectors. It must be remembered that when fired most hammer guns are self openers, and I am talking of top or side levers not rotary underleavers. Push over the lever the barrels drop, whip out the fired shells, insert the two you have held between the index and middle fingers of the left hand , close gun by raising stock then with barrels pointing skywards so as the thumb can get a good grip on the hammers cock BOTH barrels with your right thumb. I would say that an uncocked hammer gun is in a safer state than a cocked hammerless with the safety applied.

 

Vintage guns are great fun, do the drill dry and on your own until you are competant in reloading and cocking, your purchase will already have lasted two or three lifetimes shooting and could well last several more with the minumum of attention.

 

Blackpowder

 

For extra enjoyment procure some blackpowder cartridges, but dont use on a calm day as second barrel shots will be masked in a cloud of smoke.

[pbickerd]

Get yourself a good book about it, think I have one somewhere, I'll post up the title if I find it.

 

Not something to rush into if you're a novice to hammerguns, a LOT of things to watch out for!

 

 

Can you give us some pointers on what to look out for? It would be appreciated.

[Browning GTS]

Look at my sig` i love SbS and especially hammerguns i find new o/u`s very bulky to hold, where as a nice back action hammergun is is dream and so pointable, im sure if more people new to shooting held these before a new gun they would maybe buy differenty. Im talking about game not clays because these old guns could not take 1,000s of carts a year through them, but when walking around your permission with a gun on your arm you cannot beat them As mentioned one thing to look out for is being able to break the gun with the hammers back, this was a problem with my Italian gun but was sorted by my gunsmith for £85 plus he replaced the strikers and collars.

[mattslaptop247]

I just picked up an old Lofley and co hammergun. Its about 130 years old. I got it for a bargan price from Paul at PR Arms. UK Gun repairs are just restoring the damascus barrels at the moment. It might cost me a few hundred quid to restore but I was told that when it was new it would have cost around a years wages for a farm labourer so its well worth it. When its done I will post some pics. It is just so much comfier to carry round and the actions is of a much finer quality than ou get nowadays!

[Browning GTS]

Also worth getting some suitable cartridges for older guns i find that Europa English Gun are very low recoil and do the job.

[Cumbrian]

Try the website of G. Mackinlay, Glasgow gunsmith, for another group of hammerguns beside the Lovel ones. He clearly knows his trade and goes into proof readings and wall thicknesses, which any purchaser of old English guns ought to do before buying.

[mudpatten]

When venturing deep into hammer gun territory it pays to have a working knowledge of proof marks.

This will give you an understanding of the date of the guns manufacture, useful for establishing it`s quality which is relevant to it`s value and understanding how much metal may have been taken out of the barrels.

 

It will also prevent you unwittingly buying a gun which is only black powder proofed, especially if it is a "caveat emptor" private sale.

 

You also need to be aware of the fact that old 2 1/2", or 65mm, chambered guns were just that.

 

Beware of using cartridges with a 67mm case length and on no account use 70mm.

[Browning GTS]

That why i suggested those they are 65s made for the job.

[njc110381]

I bottled it and bought a hammerless French SBS N/E today. It only cost me £75 though so if a decent hammer gun comes along I may still grab it.

 

The 65mm chamber thing did worry me a bit, mainly because I have 3000 70mm clay cartridges to use and no shotgun apart from my combi gun!

[arjimlad]

My 1960 San Marco has 70mm chambers... !

 

Will be dusting clays with it on Sunday - it's choked full & full..

[berettaman]

I have the williams choked at cylinder and quarter best decoying tool on the go,also nice and light to carry on either a rough or driven day

P.s.just had hair trigger regulated cost £45 so it wont eat you out of house and home,takes 70mm carts too

Edited May 28, 2010 by berettaman

[Hammergun]

Many hammerguns have what are termed as "damascus" barrels, and in fact anything before about 1890 would have had them originally anyway, but you may come across them where the barrels have been replaced.

 

Until the 1920s, when the manufacturing process had all but been superseded by new steelmaking technology, bars of malleable iron were forged in budles (known as "faggoting"). For general use, terms such as "Best", "Best Best" and "Treble Best" were used which referred to the number of times the iron bar was faggoted (bundles of bar forged together and stretched). Early gun barrels were faggoted once (such as 17th and 18th century pieces). Later guns were faggoted twice or three times. This is known as Damascus steel.

 

The procress was also used for anything else where a grade of steel with high tensile strength was requried, along with a fine forged consistency, such as steel cutlery, knives, scissors and in fact anything precision made prior to the devemopment of high quality forged steel production. Each time the steel was faggoted, the tensile strenght inproved and consistency became more uniform. It created a grain by stretching the inclusions of impurities in the metal and improving tensile strength, however the metal was much weaker when stressed across the grain. To improve this, the forged strips were spirally wound to form tubes. The effect is similar to how cord and wire is used to reinforce tyres.

[Pigeon_snIPer]

I have a Geco 12 bore DBBL.

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...253&hl=geco

 

I must say that it is a pleasure to shoot one of these. The hammers have some kind of a safety device that will not allow the hammer to strike the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled.

 

She is nitro proofed and so i use 2 3/4 inch cartridges without any prb.

 

I have had no issues with the ol gal so far.

 

The only question I have is - how long can you carry one of these with the hammers cocked. As of now i only cock when i need to fire.

Thanks

/S/

[Hammergun]

I have a Geco 12 bore DBBL.

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...253&hl=geco

 

I must say that it is a pleasure to shoot one of these. The hammers have some kind of a safety device that will not allow the hammer to strike the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled.

 

She is nitro proofed and so i use 2 3/4 inch cartridges without any prb.

 

I have had no issues with the ol gal so far.

 

The only question I have is - how long can you carry one of these with the hammers cocked. As of now i only cock when i need to fire.

Thanks

/S/

Most hammer guns have rebounding locks which prevent the hammers contacting the firing pins unless the trigger is pulled.

 

Previous posters have commented on having to let the hammers back in order to open the gun with the lever. This really is not an issue provided it is done in a safe manner (gun pointing away from people into air). People would do well to remember that with a hammerless gun, the action is cocked once the gun is closed!

 

You must not use 2 3/4 cartidges unless it is chambered for them, nitro proofed or not. If your cartridges are too long the ends will protrude into the forcing cones causing high stresses in this area when fired. The result of this may not be visually apparent. If you are unsure what cartridge length it takes, your gunsmith will be able to tell you. Some continental hammerguns will actually take 2 3/4" cartridges as the standard continental size was 70mm, but do not assume this to be so.

[Pigeon_snIPer]

Thanks Hammergun,

The flats on mine say nitro proofed and 12-70, i did have it checked out with a local gunsmith who confirmed that they are indeed 70mm.

/S/