Pigeons in Serious Decline !!

[Fisherman Mike]

This topic has been aired before but it always stirs up a few of the hardened assassins amongst us and is good for a debate so here goes.

 

The recent BTO Breeding Breeding Bird survey results show a 7% drop in Pigeon numbers between surveys in 2008 and 2009.

Surveys are normally carried out nationally in pre determined squares by BTO members twice a year in spring and early summer. The 2010 information is being collated now.

 

7% drop might not seem a great deal to us compared to the general year on year increase recorded since 1995 but it has caused sufficient interest to be allocated in the latest reports as significant.

 

We wont know until the 2010 results what the effect of last winters atrocious weather had on the breeding population but I would suspect there would be a trend beginning where wood pigeons have probabaly reached their sustainable maximum and will decline overall in numbers the more they are controlled by the gun at current levels.

 

If this does happen and the population shows significant decline in the next 5 -10 years one thing is for sure and that is the BTO and RSPB will lobby Parliaments consultative committee to have it removed from the General List.

 

Dont be so stupid I hear you say! but it will happen and as a matter of fact has happened with both the House Sparrow and Starling in recent years, both species of which easily outnumbered current levels of Wood pigeon in the 40's - 70,s. and both now on the BTO amber list of declining species.

 

What do you all think. Should we act responsibly now and limit our shooting to actual pest contol on growing crops or still as many of us do shoot indescriminately over fields that dont really need protection.

 

Should we as a forum, (and we have sufficient national membership now to do this,) be policing our own sporting passtime and introducing our own limits and regulations.

 

Personally I like to limit my shooting strictly within the proper understanding of the general licence, which is why I dont often shoot on anything other than sprouting rape or laid grain. Plus the fact Im still in pursuit of that elusive 2lb Roach before I shuffle off.!

 

Many of us feel we have to get out every day and kill every bird in the air and I find that very worrying and very much a Herring Fishermans attitude. I was talking to a 90 year old Cornish Fisherman a couple of weeks back in St. Ives and he could never believe that the populations of herring were completely overfished in his lifetime.

 

Food for thought ? FM

[Wesman]

I caught a 2.2lb roach from the Rochdale canal. Biggest fish I ever caught

[Blackbart]

Seen more pigeons this year than ever before :blink:

 

The argument about not shooting over "crops that dont really need protecting" is like saying dont shoot a fox until it is "IN " the chicken shed.

 

Why does it follow that something that has reached a sustainable level, will then begin to decline ? surely that is a contradiction !

[Teal]

You raise a lot of points here FM, to add a little bit of my opinion, I would say that sparrows and starlings are not the serious agricultural pests that woodpigeons are, and for this reason alone it would take a very serious decline indeed for action to be taken in removal from the general licence.

 

Regarding the apparent decline of 7%, I would not take this as gospel, at best it is an approximation from just over 2000 bird watchers spread across the UK, and whilst I note that you mention it is significant this is only within the context of the study. I think it is a mistake to draw too many conclusions at this stage from what is a single blip upon a background of a steadily increasing woodpigeon population (the study refers to a 35% increase since 1995).

 

As you say the survey from the next few years will be interesting, and I wonder if it will show whether there has been a noticeable impact on the woodpigeon population from the harsh winter we experienced. Common sense would suggest that woodpigeons have taken a hammering, but on the other hand there were few reports of findings of large numbers of dead birds, and given the distance that woodpigeons travel, with the almost annual reports of Scandinavian and European birds arriving in England, and Scottish birds making their way to Ireland it is possible that they have done better than might be expected.

 

Assuming there was a decline being involved in shooting it seems logical to link shooting pressure with changes in populations, but I think there are a lot of other factors at play here, metereological changes are well documented and the last two years, with an incredibly wet summer and an exceedingly cold winter will have undoubtably both affected reproductive success and survival. All the while there are significant behavioural changes in the woodpigeons themselves, which may be influencing the findings of the study, there seems to be an increasing migration into towns and villages, whilst moving out during the day to feed. Looking forward I think the biggest threat to the woodpigeon population is not from shooting but from further improvements in farming techniques, there is now little grain left when drilling, shorter stemmed crops mean fewer laid cereals, whilst superior combining at harvest and treating of seed and sprays may discourage woodpigeons from feeding.

 

In essence in answer to your question "Should we act now?", I think the answer is definite no. I think it will require several years data to confirm a declining trend in the population, and it is certainly far far too early to think about restricting shooting.

 

Of course the small minority of shooters on harvested cereals who throw the birds into the hedge should not be doing what they do, but this is regardless of whether there is a declining population or not. For the vast majority of shooters I think that they should carry on as normal, afterall it seems unlikely that the shooting pressure in 2008-2009 was any more intensive than the year before.

 

I would say that if this finding had been in the first few years when the pigeon magnet was brought onto the market (with more shooters becoming involved in shooting woodpigeon, and also with shooters tending to have more success) I would maybe be a little more concerned and could perhaps understand linking a decrease in the population with shooting, but all the while this was happening the woodpigeon population was booming.

[Fisherman Mike]

I caught a 2.2lb roach from the Rochdale canal. Biggest fish I ever caught

 

 

I hate you

[starlord]

This topic has been aired before but it always stirs up a few of the hardened assassins amongst us and is good for a debate so here goes.

 

The recent BTO Breeding Breeding Bird survey results show a 7% drop in Pigeon numbers between surveys in 2008 and 2009.

Surveys are normally carried out nationally in pre determined squares by BTO members twice a year in spring and early summer. The 2010 information is being collated now.

 

7% drop might not seem a great deal to us compared to the general year on year increase recorded since 1995 but it has caused sufficient interest to be allocated in the latest reports as significant.

 

We wont know until the 2010 results what the effect of last winters atrocious weather had on the breeding population but I would suspect there would be a trend beginning where wood pigeons have probabaly reached their sustainable maximum and will decline overall in numbers the more they are controlled by the gun at current levels.

 

If this does happen and the population shows significant decline in the next 5 -10 years one thing is for sure and that is the BTO and RSPB will lobby Parliaments consultative committee to have it removed from the General List.

 

Dont be so stupid I hear you say! but it will happen and as a matter of fact has happened with both the House Sparrow and Starling in recent years, both species of which easily outnumbered current levels of Wood pigeon in the 40's - 70,s. and both now on the BTO amber list of declining species.

 

What do you all think. Should we act responsibly now and limit our shooting to actual pest contol on growing crops or still as many of us do shoot indescriminately over fields that dont really need protection.

 

Should we as a forum, (and we have sufficient national membership now to do this,) be policing our own sporting passtime and introducing our own limits and regulations.

 

Personally I like to limit my shooting strictly within the proper understanding of the general licence, which is why I dont often shoot on anything other than sprouting rape or laid grain. Plus the fact Im still in pursuit of that elusive 2lb Roach before I shuffle off.!

 

Many of us feel we have to get out every day and kill every bird in the air and I find that very worrying and very much a Herring Fishermans attitude. I was talking to a 90 year old Cornish Fisherman a couple of weeks back in St. Ives and he could never believe that the populations of herring were completely overfished in his lifetime.

 

Food for thought ? FM

[Wesman]

I hate you

 

lol :blink:

 

I'll see if I can dig the picture out. I got very lucky I think.

 

On topic, I think you have a point.

[24230]

If wood pigeons are on the decline then us boys in the farming world will be a little richer.

[Ozzy Fudd]

im with teal, wait a few years until theres a trend develops showing wood pigeon decline THEN panic :blink:

 

having said that im not too worried, on a 2 hour drive up the country on sunday i saw only about 2 dozen pigeons, but hundreds of crows (crows, pigeons, jackdaws...), so if push comes to shove ill just paint the pigeon decoys black

[dinodad]

I think that there are more and more of us shooters chasing the woodpigeon. The decline may just be the fact that as they are getting "hammered" from all angles (like here in Yorkshire), they are just spread out and sometimes harder to decoy as well as not flocking together in such numbers. I am seeing birds getting warier and warier lately, on some of my permissions they appear to be getting use to my car. I have been doing well though, but only using real birds as decoys in small patterns. Many folk are not truely decoying them in and taking long shots.

 

Cheers

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I think that there are more and more of us shooters chasing the woodpigeon. The decline may just be the fact that as they are getting "hammered" from all angles (like here in Yorkshire), they are just spread out and sometimes harder to decoy as well as not flocking together in such numbers. I am seeing birds getting warier and warier lately, on some of my permissions they appear to be getting use to my car. I have been doing well though, but only using real birds as decoys in small patterns. Many folk are not truely decoying them in and taking long shots.

 

Cheers

 

Totally agree I know I will upset a few by my comments as it has done before but I watched a couple of blokes the other day and the distants they where shooting at birds was amazing scary the hell out of them rather than killing them.

 

Shooters using too light a load to kill pigeons means that birds are wising up and staying clear.

 

Some shooters need to where cowboy hats because thats how they shoot IMO.

 

I watched a sporting video post on here the other day and yes there where knocking them down but boy they had alot of runners.

 

I had the rare chance to shoot on some much sort after NT land where the birds have not been shoot at regular and I shot 176 in under 3 hours as decoyed wonderfully.

 

Regards OTH

[Highlander]

Mike, I raised this topic sometime back on here after reading an article by ‘The Major’ that he wrote back in the early ‘70’s. Official figures then put the number of pigeons being exported by UK game dealers at close to 2 million birds per annum and Archie’s rhetorical question was whether the (woody) population could withstand such a ‘cull’ and queried how many breeding pairs of birds were needed to keep the population at (then) current levels.

 

I assume the official records only covered ‘exported’ birds and there was no record of the additional numbers being killed but not exported. How many in total I wonder, 2.5 million, 3 million?

 

So onward to today, some 40 years later. A lot more people out shooting pigeons, a lot more large bags being reported etc etc so how many are we shooting each year now? Certainly more than in Archie’s time, maybe 3 million, maybe 4, maybe more. Whatever the figure just stop for a moment to consider the number of breeding pairs needed to sustain that sort of continuous cull. I know we can all tell tales of woody breeding 3 times in a year, that’s 6 young per pair BUT how many survive to adulthood, 1 maybe 2 possibly but I doubt more and suspect less. Therefore at best woody is maintaining numbers, certainly NOT increasing them and most probably is in decline or will be if current cull levels are maintained.

 

Oh I know we can all talk about the numbers we see BUT when we also see pictures on here and elsewhere of 500, 600, 700 bird days it won’t take long for local populations to fall to very low levels and ‘local’ is what woody is about as in spite of people still talking about ‘continental’ visitors and birds migrating I think there’s enough science to prove that doesn’t happen to any extent.

 

OK so farmers and growers will probably not shed a tear (might even party) and neither will those guys on here and elsewhere who, like your herring fisherman and other sea fishers in general ,refuse to consider let alone believe that woody might one day (and possibly in the not too distant future) become a rare bird. A sad day for those of us who respect the woodpigeon for their craft, their guile, their aerial acrobatics and above all for the sport they provide us. Yes (at present) they are an agripest (to be managed not wiped out) but still worthy of our respect.

 

I’m not saying it will happen BUT if we continue to shoot the numbers we do and are encouraged to do so by all the shooting organisations and the media we should at least consider whether our kids might like some of the sport we’ve enjoyed all these years.

[Dr D]

their numbers are down and their behaviour has changed in the last 15-20 years. fact. Also, the scottish birds don't come over in anywhere near the numbers they used to. that might be because of a change in agricultural practices in scotland or milder winters or maybe their numbers are down there as well. in any case, last year was the hardest winter we have had for a long time. the pigoens didn't seem to be suffering, but the scottish birds just didn't arrive. they used to turn up in 10's of thousands and take hours to pass by in the mornings (a bit like dove shooting in Cordoba). Not anymore. those days are gone.

[mossy835]

well you cant keep on shooting the numbers some have done on here, and others around the country, the numbers will go down.

[jcf1]

I'm not going to tell you the size of the roach I caught on the brue down this way - even if you did believe it, you'd hate me too

[markbivvy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11013507

this says woddies are on the increase.?:good:??

[Highlander]

'The impact on birds has been estimated from a "citizen science" project in which more than 700 people have been monitoring bird numbers in their gardens since 2003.'

 

Says it all really!

 

The BTO, RSPB etc but NOT I note GWCT all report increasing numbers of Woodpigeon only these organisations tend to rely heavily on people seeing things from the comfort of their own back windows on their heavily fed bird tables. All of which helps to swell their respective coffers with membership money and sales of bird food!

 

For serious, reliable and factual information you can't beat genuine fieldwork.

[Ozzy Fudd]

im a bit confused at the point of this thread, although i know fishermanmike is only looking to start a debate and possibly a few arguments - This topic has been aired before but it always stirs up a few of the hardened assassins amongst us and is good for a debate so here goes

 

Highlander you seem to be erring towards leaving pigeons alone to breed; fair enough, but in your own words, when dismissing the studies which say wood pigeons are increasing, you said "For serious, reliable and factual information you can't beat genuine fieldwork." does that mean if someone goes out and see's a couple of thousand woodies floating about they should be perfectly happy to shoot 500+? and what if a farmer asks you to clear out wood pigeons as theyre hammering his crops, etc, yet when you get there you only spot a couple of dozen. does that mean you ignore the farmers wishes?!

 

and as this thread is supposedly about decreasing wood pigeon numbers, whats everyone proposing? we dont shoot any pigeons at all? or we hold off until theyve built up sufficient numbers so no matter how much we shoot them it wont affect their numbers? if were afraid of them being taken off the general licence, well whats the minimum number to keep them on it? whats the maximum number we can get away with allowing to breed before they cause serious damage to farming? and if weve seen a steadyv population increase since 2003, yet theres been a decrease in the last year, have numbers decreased to a level after 2003 (so still high) or have they decreased to a level before 2003 (so taken a real hammering)? before anyone asks im not really on any side of this argument as crows (jackdaws, etc) are the main pest here at lately

 

and now my head hurts thinking about all this :lol: ;)

[yickdaz]

could it just be a simple answer that the people who are saying that numbers are declining just don;t have the numbers around that particular area and not due to being overshot i remember over the hill saying earlier this year that he had poor numbers round his area then come the summer months he shot over 800 in a few weeks.

• 
  

me personally had the same happen february;march was the worst 2 months i have had on them ever.. but come june and up to now has been the best period i can remember.also seeing more birds in some areas we shoot that never used to hold as many birds.

[Highlander]

Ozzy

 

Not advocating no pigeon shooting at all, NOT even a closed season, just some restraint. Of late we have many people, shooting journalists, shooting organisations etc promoting pigeon shooting to all and everyone in a BIG way. You’ve only to look at the trend in some of the shooting mags to see the excitement created by LARGE bags of woodies. We have no reliable information, certainly you can’t take the views of PWers , about pigeon numbers and we've had no serious studies done since Dr Murton way back in the 1950s so at present it’s all guesswork which is not the way to determine anything.

 

I am well aware that many people consider woody to be an out and out pest not worthy of our respect to be killed at every opportunity but that is where I must disagree. Woody is IMO one of the finest sporting birds and IS more than demanding of our respect. If we seek to ‘fill our boots’ and kill as many as possible each and every time we venture out we will without a doubt see a reduction in numbers quite apart from any seasonal variations in populations.

If you’re after big bags then either go clay shooting or game shooting, where incidentely both are more guaranteed than woody!

 

I blame such an attitude in part on clay shooters who then venture into the world of live quarry shooting. Having been taught to (competitively) kill each and every bird presented to them on a clay shoot they adopt the same policy on live quarry, game and wildfowl as well as pigeons. That coupled with the macho attitude of many shooters is not and should not be the way of the hunter.

[retromlc]

I've not been shooting long,and today I had one of my best days,,,,,,,18 pigeons! I don't sell to dealers,i eat what I can and give the rest to my mates.when I shoot,I try not to take too many birds that look young and i try not to shoot a pair,although i did today,but in general I try to shoot sensibly.If I was having a blinder of a day I suspect I'd stop when i've got as many as I can handle/carry etc

I often read about the huge (100 plus) bags reached and I personally think it's too much,i think that at that rate you can easily decimate an area,as the breeding population can't cope with that attrician rate i suspect.

i think that a self imposed limit would be sensible.

but that's not going to happen.

[proTOM1]

I've not been shooting long,and today I had one of my best days,,,,,,,18 pigeons! I don't sell to dealers,i eat what I can and give the rest to my mates.when I shoot,I try not to take too many birds that look young and i try not to shoot a pair,although i did today,but in general I try to shoot sensibly.If I was having a blinder of a day I suspect I'd stop when i've got as many as I can handle/carry etc

I often read about the huge (100 plus) bags reached and I personally think it's too much,i think that at that rate you can easily decimate an area,as the breeding population can't cope with that attrician rate i suspect.

i think that a self imposed limit would be sensible.

but that's not going to happen.

 

The 100 plus bags maybe to much to you but the farmer would be pleased to see that many not on his fields .

I shot for the sport but also for pest controll if a farmer asked me to shoot a field with lots of birds on and i only shot 20 then went home with birds still coming in i would soon lose the land due to him being asked for permission to shoot most weeks .

 

Do i think there pigeon numbers are down yes i do but you get this from time to time but with out a proper study we will never get the full story on the numbers . Do i think there will ever come a time when there are hardly any around no i dont not with how good wild life in genral are at adapting .

 

For me the numbers are down on what ive shot this year but then ive been very busy taking others out to shoot them and the numbers shot on that side is well up .

 

All we can do is wait and see and act in the best interest of the sport

[retromlc]

The 100 plus bags maybe to much to you but the farmer would be pleased to see that many not on his fields .

I shot for the sport but also for pest controll if a farmer asked me to shoot a field with lots of birds on and i only shot 20 then went home with birds still coming in i would soon lose the land due to him being asked for permission to shoot most weeks .

 

Do i think there pigeon numbers are down yes i do but you get this from time to time but with out a proper study we will never get the full story on the numbers . Do i think there will ever come a time when there are hardly any around no i dont not with how good wild life in genral are at adapting .

 

For me the numbers are down on what ive shot this year but then ive been very busy taking others out to shoot them and the numbers shot on that side is well up .

 

All we can do is wait and see and act in the best interest of the sport

Don't get me wrong,If I was shooting because a farmer asked me to clear his field that would be different,that's pest control.I'm part of a syndicate and I pay to shoot,(I've tried to get additional land but the farmers don't seem to need anybody,they say they have people who do it but I drive around my area all the time and see fields being hit all the time,I approach the farmer but they seem happy for it to continue,but that is another subject)so I do it more as a hobby,and the fresh pigeon,so I shoot what i can deal with,I shot 18 today because in the 3 hours I had spare I had about 25 in range,I managed 18,

I think the topic is about are numbers in decline and should we control the amount that is shot to preserve the species, not pest control.

[Fisherman Mike]

Some of you might like to visit this site... http://www.bto.org/bbs/take_part/introduction.htm. copy and paste it to your browser.

You may even consider signing up for a square near you, its really absorbing just 2 hour morning walk twice a year in the early summer.

 

Currently members survey 3200 squares nationally which is a pretty large number reprecenting a large xsection of breeding range of many species.

 

Give it a go. !

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I think bird number are down if oxfordshire compared to last te years I keep a detailed diary and now a photo diary along with the writen one.

 

I would be intrested in Will Beasley thoughts as he is on the boarders joinning my boundary area and see what he thinks and also his clients.

 

Now the debate in this years harsh weather was a complete diffrent matter for me it was about compassion not about protection of future sport or crop protection.

 

Now is the humble woody in decline maybe not but maybe with have reached its max and any decline would only bring it back to level reached 20 years ago.

 

Less all not forget that today sport of woody shooting is a direct result of the farming methods caused by WW2 and the land I shot hundreds of birds today was part of a giant tank play area attached to salisbury plain .

 

I think birds are shifting areas more and the old local birds are not as fixed as they where 10/20 years ago it use to be genarally that if you had a influx of birds into your area in late sept /oct on autumm gales they would stay put on your winter OSR till spring not no more.

 

The other thing to add is we as human beings tried to kill rabbits with the awful mixy and we failed ,no matter how many woodys we shoot we will never dent the population on our own shooting actions ,maybe we could if like some we shoot them in harsh winter weather and kill 100 of thousands .

But one of reasons we will fail is masses of UK has been covered with houses with its own micro climates where woodys will hold out and breed.

 

Regards OTH

Edited September 10, 2010 by Over the hill