Paying for Shooting

[Elby]

I think you've just signed your life away...

 

Wait for the PM about "We're going to have to ban you unless this free day is offered soon"

 

I think I have already offered it to one of them, had to empty my message box several time so can't remember which one

[Billy.]

I think I have already offered it to one of them, had to empty my message box several time so can't remember which one

*Mods begin furiously scavenging their inboxes*

 

 

Sorry, derail over.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Billy.

[Elby]

*Mods begin furiously scavenging their inboxes*

 

 

Sorry, derail over.

There's only 2 mods on here right?

[al4x]

I bet its the most local one

I guess my gripe if you can call it that is that it seems like there are a fair few "agents" trying to work out what they can flog on here and when you have been shooting a while you can see what is a good deal and will be a good learning experience and what is not, lots on here with no permissions etc don't seem to so we have prices going up and up and part of the good side of the forum disapearing under a commercial side. Obviously then you link it with a recession and people are out to make what they can and with "businesses" with none of the usual overheads like third party insurance and tax etc then you have the other side where you can guarantee a fair few of the landowners who give the permission for free or employ the person making the money having no idea of the financial agreement side.

Its not meant to be an arguing the toss on prices more on should there be a free for all in the sale of shooting and entirely up to the buyer to beware or should people need to apply to sell shooting on here and the mods just get a questionnaire filled in to check the set up is properly run before hand,

[HDAV]

Interesting thread I only shoot clays, now i am not saying i would or wouldn't pay to shoot pigeons but clays aren't free land isn't free electricity isn't free.

 

I have no problem paying for a professional service as long as it is legit, insured (properly for paying guests etc), legal (has proper permission from the owner (sporting rights whatever) and is a reasonable service. PErhpas it's the shift of the internet that more people offer this service, you could liken it to hookers or accountants. In years gone by people chatted in pubs, cafes and shooting (fur and feather) was a rural or upper class activity the fact more of us live in urban areas (quite sad i don't know any actual proper farmers by name) use the internet to communicate and we are more entrepreneurial that people are charging and others paying.

 

I do think the forum as an entity needs to either regulate or ban the sale of shooting days. People will still PM email and phone each other. I see forums as a pub, Admin are the licensee, Mods the bar and door staff, most pubs let you have a meeting at a table and discuss a sale or purchase, if you buy a drink or 2, most dont let fill a table with stuff to sell and sell it (at least not without taking a %). Forums should be the same,

 

Anyone for a drink?

[Elby]

I bet its the most local one

I guess my gripe if you can call it that is that it seems like there are a fair few "agents" trying to work out what they can flog on here and when you have been shooting a while you can see what is a good deal and will be a good learning experience and what is not, lots on here with no permissions etc don't seem to so we have prices going up and up and part of the good side of the forum disapearing under a commercial side. Obviously then you link it with a recession and people are out to make what they can and with "businesses" with none of the usual overheads like third party insurance and tax etc then you have the other side where you can guarantee a fair few of the landowners who give the permission for free or employ the person making the money having no idea of the financial agreement side.

Its not meant to be an arguing the toss on prices more on should there be a free for all in the sale of shooting and entirely up to the buyer to beware or should people need to apply to sell shooting on here and the mods just get a questionnaire filled in to check the set up is properly run before hand,

Trouble is Alex paid or unpaid if you take someone shooting you are responsible for them and need insurance to cover that.

I'm straight with my landowners but most of my land I rent and the bits I don't I pay for with work.

The mods can't be held responsible for vetting anybody, that has to be down to the buyer.

Things have certainly changed over the years, when I first started farmers were supplying cartridges, these days they know shooting has a value and will generally make you pay for it in one way or another.

[Billy.]

Trouble is Alex paid or unpaid if you take someone shooting you are responsible for them and need insurance to cover that.

I'm straight with my landowners but most of my land I rent and the bits I don't I pay for with work.

The mods can't be held responsible for vetting anybody, that has to be down to the buyer.

Things have certainly changed over the years, when I first started farmers were supplying cartridges, these days they know shooting has a value and will generally make you pay for it in one way or another.

 

If you're going to take someone shooting, you can always ask them to cover the cost of their own insurance. Whilst BASC is one of the priciest, CA will cover me for around a tenner. I'm sure someone wouldn't mind paying that if they were that keen on going.

[HW682]

I have no problem with people charging for shooting. I had a couple of days out with Protom1 when I was first starting and they were very good value for money. There is a lot of behind the scenes leg work to do this properly eg reconnaissance, setting the hide up the evening before, flagging off nearby fields etc.

 

There was a recent post though - and no offence meant to anyone - but it looked like the poster had just thought "if I can get 10 people in the field for £100 each I can make a quick £1k this weekend".

 

The one thing I would really like to see is that paid for shooting is separated from free offers. Either make a new category in the Trading Post, or split the shooting available into sub categories. That way, if you don't want to pay, simply don't bother looking.

 

This was mentioned in another recent thread and didn't really catch on - but it might be worth thinking about again.

 

 

edit: lol just seen the next post. Total coincidence I promise.

Edited October 21, 2010 by HW682

[proTOM1]

I am 1 of the forum members offering days pigeon shooting on hear . I have been a guide for over 4 years now and this year have dropped my prices for winter time so thought i would offer it on hear as im for ever seeing posts of know where to shoot . I mainly cater for novice shooters and for guys with out land . This for time being is my main income but who knows for how long as there are getting to be so many other guides out there it is becoming harder with so many just taking guys out dumping them in a field and then taking there money !

 

It think its good to have so many different offers of shooting put up on a shooting site imo as it gives those coming in to the sport a place to go to help them learn and get more interested in the sport that we all love . I also belive it will help the sport and all types of shooting we all do keep getting stronger as like anything we always need new blood so to speak .

 

Tom

[shootreview]

Another problem is, if the mods have to VET the seller then the buyer (if there is a problem) will obviously go back to the mod and have a grumble and try to proportion some of the blame on the mod, which in my opinion is unfair and could get a little nasty.

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I dont know what the hell its got to do with the MODS and vetting .

 

If that was the case would ever seller who puts a item up for sale should also be vetted as there is no diffrents between one offering a day out shooting or a another offering a gun for sale.

 

Both could be just as dishonest or just as honest .

 

Regards OTH

[al4x]

Another problem is, if the mods have to VET the seller then the buyer (if there is a problem) will obviously go back to the mod and have a grumble and try to proportion some of the blame on the mod, which in my opinion is unfair and could get a little nasty.

 

 

vet them is possibly the wrong word, one forum I go on you have to pay a fee to advertise commercial shooting and at that point the mods just check a few things out and give the go ahead, if there are problems then they tend to disappear. Funnily enough we have most of the good ones on this thread so far and the likes of ProTom are what the forum is all about. I've lost count of how many people he's taken out free and there is usually an offer of a reasonable day at a reasonable price and you know the work before hand has been put in to ensure the day goes well as far as you can with a wild bird. Its a properly run set up insured and run properly. one of the prompts for the post was highlighted a few posts up so its not just me thinking it at times!

[markbivvy]

Every one,s out to make a buck.

I dont have a problem with those who do it for a living.

but more and more shooters with a bit of land seem to be trying to make a few bob out of the poor soles who cant get or have not got land of there own.

I take a good few folk out and would rather stick blades in my eyes before ask them to pay for ammo used or anything towards running costs of the motor.

 

its a poor do when others with a bit of land just want to help for the money they can make.

[JR1960]

Well i think we have the answer on this thread, people gloating about having 10,000s acres to shoot over is a major part of the problem. You can't possibly do justice to controlling that amount of land even if you do it 24/7. What it does do is deny many people of having permission on a few hundred acres. I have had permissions for the past 40 years and never felt the need to have more than a few thousand acres at any one time, which i shared with mates and took novices etc out on more often than not.

 

On the other side of the coin, recently i've moved about a couple of times and had some serious personal losses and lost a major permission i've had for 20 odd years because of a death and sale of the farm. A couple of people (you know who you are) have been kind enough via PW to help out and share their permissions, once i get back on my feet i hope i will be able to return the compliment.

 

When i started shooting it was as much a way of life as a sport/hobby, (at least the crop protection side of things) now it seems it is governed as much by greed as everything else in our society, whether that be grabbing as much land as possible or charging people to shoot and make a fast buck. Personally I have been quite dismayed at the sudden flurry of people offering shooting for money here, there and everywhere and hope it stops sooner rather than later, sadly i won't be holding my breath.

[leeds chimp]

Every one,s out to make a buck.

I dont have a problem with those who do it for a living.

but more and more shooters with a bit of land seem to be trying to make a few bob out of the poor soles who cant get or have not got land of there own.

I take a good few folk out and would rather stick blades in my eyes before ask them to pay for ammo used or anything towards running costs of the motor.

 

its a poor do when others with a bit of land just want to help for the money they can make.

i agree. I have taken a couple of people out from on here but always worry that they will try and get the permission for themself or shoot it when i am not there says i have given them permission but i believe in karma and hope someday i get the same treatment with being invited out by others

[artschool]

When i started shooting it was as much a way of life as a sport/hobby, (at least the crop protection side of things) now it seems it is governed as much by greed as everything else in our society, whether that be grabbing as much land as possible or charging people to shoot and make a fast buck. Personally I have been quite dismayed at the sudden flurry of people offering shooting for money here, there and everywhere and hope it stops sooner rather than later, sadly i won't be holding my breath.

 

completely agree. it is really damaging to our sport if people cant get access. it reminds me of the housing market. one bunch of people "occupy" all the property and then "rent" it out to the new comers therefore allowing them to remain in control of the market.

of course we all know that this is not a healthy policy longterm.

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Its not about gloating about how much acrerage some of us have its about facts and saying I am thinking of setting to offer days out with a 2000 acres of shooting would be pure maddness.

 

And on the whole acrerage subject in real terms 2000 acres of land is not a whole lots and at times 1000 acres may not have a pigeon on it so more acres equal more chance of bagging more birds if some of you want to limits your options then crack on but some off us strive for more other are just happy with a few acres .

 

One of the main reasons some end up with large acrerage is that some can provide effective service others that do not I turn up rain sleet snow struggling to cover OSR in winter.

 

Some just want the cream of the pea crop and stubbles the farmers soon seek them out and will not invite them for the privledge again which in turn plays in to hands of shooters like myself who end up with vast acrerage.

 

Good luck boys maybe I will just share it with a chossen few for nowt or keep it myself as this thread has highlighted the problems that arise from trying to provide shooting,OTH

Edited October 21, 2010 by Over the hill

[Beardo]

It's a good thread and brings up some valid points - i particularly like the pub analogy.

I have no problem with paying for some shooting, providing it's priced fairly. i do see a worrying trend with farmers charging to shoot vermin - a couple of the farms i shoot on are farmed by one guy who is now offering vermin shooting for £200 a year (thankfully he's not trying to charge me (yet)), but it opens up all sorts of issues.

I've taken up a good deal of time trying to build good relationships with my farmers - it's a two way street. They have eyes and ears on the farm at all sorts of hours, which can save a lot of heartache on their part.

There are some great offers out there by some good people, giving those who don't have land/knowledge the opportunity to learn and shoot, but as with any line of business, there are also chancers trying to make a fast buck at the expense of some poor soul.

Take your time and do your research.

[Tom&Dexter]

Being new to the sport and forum I know how hard it is to get out

 

If you are going to pay for it make sure its all lagit get something in paper when you pay make sure you are coverd by insurance.

 

As said already there are a lot of post croping up of latley that sound a bit like a money spinner etc.

 

I am just thankfull to this forum and a few spot on local members ( one in particular) that I have been able to get out a fair few times lernt a fair bit from setting up, been kept right with gear, been shown how to strip and clean guns, dispatch game, etc etc and lots more

 

Tom

[Cranfield]

Many members of this Forum have given and received invitations for a days shooting, or ferreting, with no fees involved (mostly communicated via PM's or email) ever since the Forum has existed and long may that continue.

 

We have also always had professional Guides making their services known, but I agree we have seen in recent months the emergence of the "amateur" members selling a day out.

 

It is of course up to the "customer" to decide to purchase this facility or not, thats all they have to do.

 

As regards the responsibilities of the "seller", no doubt they have to acquaint themselves with all the Health and Safety, Insurance, Income Tax and other legal/administrative requirements and I suspect there are many, so its not a simple matter if done properly.

 

There is a lot of difference in taking someone shooting and getting your breakfast paid for and doing the same thing for hard cash.

[nobby63]

Hi All , Been a good bit read on peoples opions but a question I want to ask is in the days when you done the door knocking did you say to the the land owner may I have permission and by the way im going to start a bussiness using your land cos thats what this thread is starting to read like ? If you offered the land owner a fee to shoot then OK charge to reclaim seems fair at the right price. posted not to offend.

[RossEM]

I don't think there's anything wrong with charging for offering a professional service, advice, insurance, kit, costs, providing shots at the quarry etc etc. But charging for a ropey bit of pigeon shooting is not right - it's up to the buyer's judgement I suppose.

I have about 200 acres to shoot on and I share it, I take my mates, girlfriends, whoever expresses an interest. That's for the good of shooting, and is what (in my opinion) we all should be doing if we've got permission. Make shooting accessible and don't charge unless you're running an honest business.

[HDAV]

may I have permission and by the way im going to start a bussiness using your land cos thats what this thread is starting to read like ? If you offered the land owner a fee to shoot then OK charge to reclaim seems fair at the right price. posted not to offend.

OF course anyone taking people on someone elses land to shoot would surely need permission from the landowner to have "guests" paying or not on the land this is where a friendly chat of "BTW Mr/Mrs XYZ can I bring someone else with me to shoot?" would be required and "BTW Mr/Mrs XYZ can i bring paying customers onto your land to shoot" It would be an awkward situation to find yourself in on a farmers land shooting without permission......aka poaching does someone with permission have the right to let others? I doubt it. Even if you rent the land it doesn;t automatically allow you to sub let which is what your doing if your charging someone to be on it (for shooting or other purposes)

[bigstevouk]

Every one,s out to make a buck.

I dont have a problem with those who do it for a living.

but more and more shooters with a bit of land seem to be trying to make a few bob out of the poor soles who cant get or have not got land of there own.

I take a good few folk out and would rather stick blades in my eyes before ask them to pay for ammo used or anything towards running costs of the motor.

 

its a poor do when others with a bit of land just want to help for the money they can make.

 

Well said Mark.......

[Boristhedog]

As someone who is getting back into shooting again after nearly 15 years I am tempted by the offers of ‘pay to shoot with a guide’. I’ve rough shot in the past but many things move on and change (including the law). I could become an armchair shooter, reading magazines and the like to get to grips with the changes but I’ve always found it far better, more interesting and therefore easier to take in if I’m out there learning from the expert – or at least someone more knowledgeable than me.

 

My concern is when paying for advice is knowing that that advice is sound (I know that’s relevant to all walks of life). At the moment I don’t know what I don’t know so could easily believe anything that sounds reasonable and not too far stretched. Many of the offers of guided shoots sound good, until you read some of the comments on here - not all guides are as good as perhaps they could or (dare I say) should be. I, for one, welcome the peer support or criticism following the offer posting from the more experienced PW members.

 

Once my knowledge base improves it’s likely that I would also take up offers of unaccompanied shoots, and again the comments of more experienced PW members will be read before any decisions are made.

 

I don’t think any formal vetting of these offers by the Mods is required, the PW members comments will weed out the more unscrupulous offers (which has already been said by others).