GM Police

[Mr_Logic]

i wouldn't because there's no law which says I have to. I don't see the use, I don't want anything else of mine on file, and so if twas me, they can go sing.

[Blunderbuss]

i wouldn't because there's no law which says I have to. I don't see the use, I don't want anything else of mine on file, and so if twas me, they can go sing.

It doesn't go on any file!!!

[fluke2]

Perhaps the OP could scan and show a copy of the letter on here so people know what they're actually talking about?

 

I rang a mate earlier who hasnt had a letter but knows people who have,he says it asks

for you to keep samples of a cartridge fired from each barrel of every shotgun you own,

so they can check your cartridges if they find any that have been used illegally,which

probably refers to illegal poaching criminal acts etc,my point is even if you werent responsible

for the act but your cartridges were found at the scene be it a robbery or deer poaching etc

then how do you explain yourself especially when you yourself hand them the evidence

you stored for them,This is just a costly unworkable exercise and would probably be laughed

out of any court,imagine a scenario where you were pigeon shooting with your semi and it

chucks shells into the nearest patch of bramble, so you decide to pick up the easy ones and

leave the rest,same night the local farmers prize bull is found shot dead in the same bramble patch,

and your shells get checked and match theirs where do you stand then, you handed them the

evidence to incriminate yourself, although you didnt do it someone with a non ejector did who

pockets all his used shells to reload because the guys probably a poacher who hides his

gear anyway,you left at dusk the poacher left ten minutes behind you he took his gear you didnt,

prove it, while your waiting for non existent ballistic checks,lost your guns while its going on

no alibi apart from yes I was there shooting pigeons,and all they have is a shell from a bramble

patch and one they got from you that matches, I dont think any court would prosecute or could

even if it was an armed robbery due to the fact the shells could have come from anywhere

local club etc yours mine or theirs it doesnt matter any good solicitor would chew this up and

spit it out,so whats the point of it,the only other reason for it would be that while investigations

were going on you probably get sick and say stuff your licence or make a deal to hand it in

because the evidence is against you and you dont want a prosecution.As a pilot scheme I

Honestly think its a non starter and could turn very costly for GMP to go ahead with and

the chances of finding a true guilty party using the system impossible, okay it will rule out a

lot of innocent shooters that decide to take part probably quite a few thousand but when the

checks start and the bills start rolling in it wont last long,and we can only wait and see how

many are falsely accused if it goes ahead,my apologies to anyone upset/bored by these posts tonight.

[Scully]

I can't believe all those of you who are simply going to comply with this ****.If it's not legislation then they can go whistle as far as I'm concerned.Leave your fingerprints all over your handed in cartridges if you want,but to say that nothing will be held on file is naive beyond belief.

We get all we deserve,we really do!Unbelievable.

[Justintime]

Has the firearms act been amended ? if so can gmp publish the section of the act ? this is totaly out of order another nail in the lawfull shooters coffin i think

[gsm1968]

All that's being suggested here is that legal owners retain a fired case in case your gun is stolen. It's not taken away, held on file or used to read your secret thoughts If (and only if) it is stolen, the police might be able to use that as intelligence tool to link illegal uses of it in future. Surely that's a good thing?

 

A voluntary scheme to retain an empty case at no cost to you, no cost to the taxpayer and a possibility (a small one I accept) that it might help the police link crimes in the future. Why wouldn't you?

 

 

As a tool to trace stolen weapons it could be a good thing. Normaly the first thing a criminal would do is remove the serial no. etc. from the gun, so haveing some sort of "finger print" of it would be good.

 

However I would hope that when investigating a crime the police would take the suspects shotgun away for testing. The idea of handing over a shell (that could have been picked up on the range) to exclude yourself as a suspect is just madness.

[Blunderbuss]

I rang a mate earlier who hasnt had a letter but knows people who have,he says it asks

for you to keep samples of a cartridge fired from each barrel of every shotgun you own,

so they can check your cartridges if they find any that have been used illegally,which

probably refers to illegal poaching criminal acts etc,my point is even if you werent responsible

for the act but your cartridges were found at the scene be it a robbery or deer poaching etc

then how do you explain yourself especially when you yourself hand them the evidence

you stored for them,This is just a costly unworkable exercise and would probably be laughed

out of any court,imagine a scenario where you were pigeon shooting with your semi and it

chucks shells into the nearest patch of bramble, so you decide to pick up the easy ones and

leave the rest,same night the local farmers prize bull is found shot dead in the same bramble patch,

and your shells get checked and match theirs where do you stand then, you handed them the

evidence to incriminate yourself, although you didnt do it someone with a non ejector did who

pockets all his used shells to reload because the guys probably a poacher who hides his

gear anyway,you left at dusk the poacher left ten minutes behind you he took his gear you didnt,

prove it, while your waiting for non existent ballistic checks,lost your guns while its going on

no alibi apart from yes I was there shooting pigeons,and all they have is a shell from a bramble

patch and one they got from you that matches, I dont think any court would prosecute or could

even if it was an armed robbery due to the fact the shells could have come from anywhere

local club etc yours mine or theirs it doesnt matter any good solicitor would chew this up and

spit it out,so whats the point of it,the only other reason for it would be that while investigations

were going on you probably get sick and say stuff your licence or make a deal to hand it in

because the evidence is against you and you dont want a prosecution.As a pilot scheme I

Honestly think its a non starter and could turn very costly for GMP to go ahead with and

the chances of finding a true guilty party using the system impossible, okay it will rule out a

lot of innocent shooters that decide to take part probably quite a few thousand but when the

checks start and the bills start rolling in it wont last long,and we can only wait and see how

many are falsely accused if it goes ahead,my apologies to anyone upset/bored by these posts tonight.

 

Geez the tin foil hat brigade are out in force. Mate you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick massively. The case the shooter retains, will not be routinely examined against cases found at other crime scenes, the police do not have the time, resources or inclination for that. They know it would be a complete waste of time and probably illegal to randomly knock on the door of every SGC holder every time there's been a shooting. It doesn't matter if your semi kicks empties out all over the country side because a) it's not a crime scene and b ) Your gun hasn't been stolen, so is not of interest to the police.

 

Lets get this clear. The only time the police will take any interest in this is, is in the very unlikely event your shotgun is stolen. From that point forward, they know for certain it's in criminal hands so is firmly on their radar. You are then helpfully able to provide them with something which might help to link future illegal uses of the gun. They already do this with illegal pistols using empty cases and bullets and because crims hire out and share guns, are able to link crimes across the country. This is not about poaching and kids breaking windows with airguns. The resources needed to do this kind of ballistic tracing are scarce and expensive, so will only be targeted against serious crime such as gang shootings.

 

The police know they are unlikely to get convictions out of ballistic exhibits alone, so this is mainly an criminal intelligence tool. Scenario: Your shot gun is stolen and you submit the empty case which is examined and details are held on the NABIS database. There are a spate of gang shootings using shotguns and at a couple of scenes, empties have been left. These are checked against the database and a match is found with your case. This allows the police to link two murders in Nottingham and Manchester which appeared to be otherwise unrelated, giving them a new investigational lead. This happens now with pistols using recovered bullets and cases. Stolen shoguns are used in about 20% of criminal shootings. The only reason the police are not asking this for rifles is that they are almost never used in crime.

 

As a squaddie on a 2 year posting to NI in the early 90s, I took my target pistols with me. On arrival I had to take them to the ballistics lab at Carrickfergus where they were test fired. The bullets were recovered from a water tank and cases retained. At the time this was done with all police and civilian firearms in NI. The system only kicked in when they were stolen, but PSNI have files on some stolen pistols, yet to be recovered which have shown by ballistics to have been used in a dozen or more murders. No one over there who had a gun legally, batted an eyelid about this or questioned it's validity, and over the years it helped solve some horrific crimes. Yet people on here would go out of their way scupper any similar plans here

[Cranfield]

This whole matter sounds like a "Spoof", but with so many people claiming to have received, or seen such a letter, perhaps it isn't.

 

Admittedly I don't watch all the CSI shows on the TV (which of course are fiction), but I find it hard to believe that enough "forensic" evidence can be gained from a spent shotgun cartridge to indisputably identify the gun that fired it.

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

Its not a spoof at all and BASC spoke ot GMP yesterday , you may not be surprised to hear they have had their phone ringing off the hook!

 

Anyway, here is a statement from GMP taken for another forum, but its still very relevent:

 

I have just scanned this thread, following an alert from a shooting member, and cannot believe how the simple request has been distorted.

 

The request GMP have made to their certificate holders is to recover a used cartridge case from each of their guns/barrels. The case should be sealed in one of the bags provided. The bag marked with details of the gun and when the case was recovered. THE CASE IS THEN RETAINED BY THE CERTIFICATE HOLDER IN A PLACE AWAY FROM THEIR GUN(S). There is absolutely no suggestion of submitting them to the Police.

 

In the unfirtunate event of a gun being lost or stolen, then if cases have been saved they would be collected by the Police. At this point the cases would be entered onto the ballistics database. Any match from a subsequent incident would identify the source of the gun and may be a most useful piece of information for an Investigating Police Officer.

 

There is nothing sinister in this request as cases would only come into the possession of the Police after a gun was reported lost or stolen. The project is purely voluntary and I can assure that those who do not wish to participate will not be disadvantaged in any way.

 

I look upon it as Shooters and licensing authorities working together in the interests of safety.

 

There is a direct contact number on each letter sent out for those who want further clarification.

 

Jim Jones GMP firearms licencing

 

Redards

 

David

[poontang]

Geez the tin foil hat brigade are out in force.

 

Excellent post Blunderbuss, and well done David BASC for setting the record straight.

 

It's unbelievable how many people bang on about their 'rights' and how the police should be taking illegal guns off the streets.

Well know's your chance to do your bit in helping the police clamp down on gun crime. Surely keeping a few empty cartridge cases isn't much to ask. Is it?

[Chard]

We're all doooooooooooooomed.

 

Did I buy this tin foil hat for nothing then?

 

I demand reimbursement. I know my rights.

[poontang]

We're all doooooooooooooomed.

 

Did I buy this tin foil hat for nothing then?

 

I demand reimbursement. I know my rights.

 

I don't think you're taking this seriously

 

People's yooman rights are at stake here

[Chard]

I don't think you're taking this seriously

 

People's yooman rights are at stake here

 

I know, I know. I was getting ready for the revolution. You'll thank me when I'm all that stands between you and the totalitarian bitchmutha armies of darkness.

I'm the vanguard of the Cock-knockers Militia. I've got camo Y-fronts and a tactical knuckleduster set.

[Dave-G]

This might also double up as a "something is being done" post 'Cumbria excercise. If media sensationalists thought every gun owner could be instantly traceable I'd imagine they'd all sleep better at night.

[MC]

This is funnier than a funny thing,

 

If anyone wants a couple of cartridges to keep in storage that haven't been fired from their gun so they are completely untracable then send me a PM, I can doo all calibres from 10 bore to .410 ( I can do 9mm and .22 shotshell if needed but they are extra)

 

All you need do is send me a paypal payment for £25 and I will send you what you need. I will even put them in a freezer bag with a wire tie around the top and label each one top or bottom barrel.

 

Just grow up, man up and do what the police are asking you to do. Haven't any of you realised yet why you have so much grief with your FEO's? Do what they ask, tell them what they want to hear and get what you like.

[Gordon R]

I don't understand all the fuss. If posters don't want to keep a sample of their own shells, pick up a couple of used shells at the next clay shoot.

 

That said, why in heavens name would you not want to comply. It may be a worthwhile exercise, which might solve a serious crime. At worst, it might be a waste of a precious couple of seconds of your time.

 

I have had a number of dealings with Jim Jones, who is one of the most sensible and reasonable blokes you could ever come across. It is sufficient, in my book, that he believed in it enough to ask.

[Blunderbuss]

I know, I know. I was getting ready for the revolution. You'll thank me when I'm all that stands between you and the totalitarian bitchmutha armies of darkness.

I'm the vanguard of the Cock-knockers Militia. I've got camo Y-fronts and a tactical knuckleduster set.

:lol:

[Kes]

One question which poses itself immediately is how much will that cost ? Storage alone would be a massive cost, postages, staff time etc?

How would you know if a crime scene gun is one of those legally held - test all the retained cases for a match? I've heard of facial recognition but not shotgun ballistics recognition.

How can they expect the cartridge cases to be from any specific gun its not a legal requirement is it?

How will they manage when a gun is sold to someone from somewhere other than GM - send them the cases or throw them away as no longer relevant to GM?

I'm tempted to write to the Chief Con and ask, in times of cuts, how can he justify an unworkable, expensive gun 'identity card system' when no one else is doing it and there are soooooooooo many more illegal firearms in their force area. Unless of course they have traced all illegal guns and all the criminals have agreed to participate. Then it would be a good idea, provided it was nationwide.

 

Why not do it for rifles ? Is is really just that shotguns are not always individually identifiable ?

 

Perhaps BASC should ask for a meeting with the GM force and poke them in the eye with a threat to make this public to the local police precept payers?

 

I cant imagine the Prime Minister would be impressed in the present climate?

 

It makes you wonder, these are policemen. perhaps they watch too much CSI.

 

Sorry, hysterical rant over.

[bigstevouk]

One question which poses itself immediately is how much will that cost ? Storage alone would be a massive cost, postages, staff time etc?

How would you know if a crime scene gun is one of those legally held - test all the retained cases for a match? I've heard of facial recognition but not shotgun ballistics recognition.

How can they expect the cartridge cases to be from any specific gun its not a legal requirement is it?

How will they manage when a gun is sold to someone from somewhere other than GM - send them the cases or throw them away as no longer relevant to GM?

I'm tempted to write to the Chief Con and ask, in times of cuts, how can he justify an unworkable, expensive gun 'identity card system' when no one else is doing it and there are soooooooooo many more illegal firearms in their force area. Unless of course they have traced all illegal guns and all the criminals have agreed to participate. Then it would be a good idea, provided it was nationwide.

 

Why not do it for rifles ? Is is really just that shotguns are not always individually identifiable ?

 

Perhaps BASC should ask for a meeting with the GM force and poke them in the eye with a threat to make this public to the local police precept payers?

 

I cant imagine the Prime Minister would be impressed in the present climate?

 

It makes you wonder, these are policemen. perhaps they watch too much CSI.

 

Sorry, hysterical rant over.

 

Read David BASC 's post then read yours again.......People jump on the wagon without reading all the thread!!

[Gordon R]

Sorry, hysterical rant over.

 

Absolutely right - hysterical.

 

The Police are not storing these - you are.

[Kes]

Thanks to both the last posters for their comment, I think.

Its not always possible to read a thread from start to finish, time is too short.

That said, BASC has been involved - great.

The costs are with shooters, except the analysis, ok I understand that.

Why, if this process is that helpful, haven't we found a system of identifying every gun from its unique case signature (etch the face)and make it mandatory on manufacturers to provide this info to a national database on purchase of a shotgun, maybe all rifles. A code to identify year, manufacturer type etc etc

This scheme we are discussing here is still partial and therefore unworkable, unless the crime and certificate location are within GM and its not an illegally held gun.

The request may be harmless but its still rather pointless isnt it?

 

Ok we need to help law enforcement agencies but maybe we should come up with some more helpful ideas ??

[Kes]

Thanks to both the last posters for their comment, I think.

Its not always possible to read a thread from start to finish, time is too short.

That said, BASC has been involved - great.

The costs are with shooters, except the analysis, ok I understand that.

Why, if this process is that helpful, haven't we found a system of identifying every gun from its unique case signature (etch the face)and make it mandatory on manufacturers to provide this info to a national database on purchase of a shotgun, maybe all rifles. A code to identify year, manufacturer type etc etc

This scheme we are discussing here is still partial and therefore unworkable, unless the crime and certificate location are within GM and its not an illegally held gun.

The request may be harmless but its still rather pointless isnt it?

 

Ok we need to help law enforcement agencies but maybe we should come up with some more helpful ideas ??

[HDAV]

Perhaps not the worst idea in the world, but would seem it is very limited and would only relate to shotguns stolen from GM after 2010 from peoples homes. Whether they would be usable if the stolen gun was used outside the GM area would depend on whether cases were found.

 

For those that doubt the validity of the science: http://forensicfirearmidentification.com/ext.html its all down to the striations on the brass caused by the imperfections in the chamber and on the ejectors and extractors these tiny grooves are compared under a microscope to a known sample (usually test fired in a lab) to find a match. Now all shotguns a serial numbered all serial numbers are held on certificates and a national database, so finding where a gun came from should be very simple (even if filed off they can normally be recovered) being able to tie a casing to gun could be useful to the police if they can find casings...

[Blunderbuss]

Thanks to both the last posters for their comment, I think.

Its not always possible to read a thread from start to finish, time is too short.

That said, BASC has been involved - great.

The costs are with shooters, except the analysis, ok I understand that.

Why, if this process is that helpful, haven't we found a system of identifying every gun from its unique case signature (etch the face) we have, its called forensic ballistics and has been pretty much possible since microscopes were invented, no need to etch the face, there are tools marks and striations in the chamber on the breech face which are unique to every gun and make it mandatory on manufacturers to provide this info to a national database on purchase of a shotgun, maybe all rifles. Not necessary, and highly impracticable - there are thousands of firearms manufacturers all over the world and loads of guns decades or a even a century old still in circulation. A code to identify year, manufacturer type etc etc

This scheme we are discussing here is still partial and therefore unworkable, unless the crime and certificate location are within GM no , if someone in GMP has their gun stolen, and is public spirited enough to think helping the police is a good idea, then the forensic details from the case they submit will be placed on a NATIONAL database (NABIS) and can then be checked against ballistic evidence recovered from anywhere in the country. and its not an illegally held gun.

The request may be harmless but its still rather pointless isnt it? It's not perfect, it might help, it might not but at almost zero cost why not. Pointless? I don't think so.

 

Ok we need to help law enforcement agencies but maybe we should come up with some more helpful ideas ?? I'm sure the police are all ears and so are we

[derek.snr]

with all the proposed cuts it will never happen ,forget about it