the 12 ft/lbs law versus pellet weight ??

[slugger]

i was wondering about the legality of various pellet weights and velocity outcomes thereof........

for example......lets put this forward as a hyperthetical scenario /

 

if i were to buy a 177.....and i experimented with various pellets untill i found a brand/weight i like.....

i then decided to use only my chosen brand of pellets [lets say for arguments sake they were a very heavy pellet]..

so i crono my gun, and due to extra heavy weight of pellet its only putting-out 11 ft/lbs [for example]...

so i "tune" my gun untill its say 11.8/11.9 ft/lbs , with me so far?

 

ok , now lets say some spotty chav decides to shoot at his birds new boyfriend and the local police [for example] have a crackdown on air-rifles / owners/ etc....

now lets say pc plod knocks on my door........tests my gun with my pellets and voila, its 11.8, no worries........

now lets suppose he tests it with his own brand of loose-fitting/lightweight pellet and the results show 12.5 ft/lbs [for example]

can i be "done" ?

have my gun conviscated?

anyone had a similar thing happen to them?

 

just curious is all, ya see i like all my toys to be running at "optimum" im a bit of a perfectionist in this matter

but i'd like to know just how old bill tests? with your own pellets, or theirs? and if you were a tiny-weeny bit over using their pellets, would they throw the book at you?

ta

[BerettaSV10]

Think there is another thread on about this, and if it is over 12 ft/lbs with their test pellets you are breaking the law and need a FAC.

[deejay]

I think that using the heavier pellet will take the ft/lb limit higher and not lower in a pcp. So therefore if you use the heviest pellet then you should have no worries about the power level going over .

However If you are using a springer then the heavier the pellet the lower the power, The lighter the pellet the higher the power .

Please correct me if I am wrong as this is what I have always thought after reading about them many years ago ,and dont ask me how this works as ,again I have no idea.

Hope this helps

Regards Darren

[mike9965]

I think that using the heavier pellet will take the ft/lb limit higher and not lower in a pcp. So therefore if you use the heviest pellet then you should have no worries about the power level going over .

However If you are using a springer then the heavier the pellet the lower the power, The lighter the pellet the higher the power .

Please correct me if I am wrong as this is what I have always thought after reading about them many years ago ,and dont ask me how this works as ,again I have no idea.

Hope this helps

Regards Darren

 

 

 

springer or pcp

 

the heavier the pellet the higher the energy ftlb but the slower the velocity

[pabs]

Yes, if you tune your heavy pellet to edge of legal, then all lighter pellets will give less FtLb and thus in the legal limit.

[lineshooter]

They test with a variety of pellets that are on the market, both heavy and lightweight.

I`m sure there is also a small % factored in, but if your over it`s illegal.

 

I`ve been there with a springer, but thank fully within the legal limit, I now chrono my airguns periodically just for peace of mind.

[The Duncan]

springer or pcp

 

the heavier the pellet the higher the energy ftlb but the slower the velocity

 

That is not always the case though - my pcp does 11fpe with Barracuda match, but 11.8fpe with AA field. The AA fields being considerably lighter than the Barracuda's.

 

For peace of mind, I would test the 'tuned' rifle over a chrono with some heavy medium and light weight pellets, just to be sure.

 

Most testing is done using 2 or 3 different pellet types (or more if they are looking for another notch in their truncheon) to see if the rifle is easily capable of exceeding the legal limit.

:yp:

[Dekers]

As others have said, the heavier pellets will tend to give a higher energy rating, but the fact is they can test with any pellet they like that is commercially available and if you go over with any you are likely to be in trouble.

 

This question crops up from time to time and whilst you have both technically and in reality committed a firearms offense, and you are liable to imprisonment, the chances of you being locked up are very slim unless you have been a naughty boy and really cranked things up!

 

Nevertheless, that is why most people stay in the 10.5 - 11.5ft lb area!

Edited December 22, 2010 by Dekers

[UKPoacher]

The wording of the legislation is 'Capable of exceeding 12 ft/lbs'. The word capable is open to discussion. Mostly common sense prevails and if your brand new HW100 is a touch over you may have your gun confiscated until it is de-tuned at your expense and not face charges. If however your Rapid is 50% over and there are tell-tale marks where the anti-tamper has been tampered with, then you are likely to be Bubba's playmate for a few years.

 

Best advice is to Chrono your gun and make sure it is within the limit. Let's face it; there is very little practical difference between 11 ft/lb and 13 ft/lb.

[Blunderbuss]

I have visited a facility which sometimes carries out tests on behalf of the police. They test with a few different pellets and find the heavier ones give higher ME. They also know from experience which brands are likely to give the highest readings with a particular make and model of rifle. If one single pellet (out of 10 fired for each one ISTR) gives a chrono MV indicating an ME over 12 ft/lb, the law has been broken. They are an independent test facility though (but also shooters) and tend to advise the police as above. If its only just over they will advise that it may not be the owner's fault and suggest remedial action. It's then the police's call and they can caution or prosecute, their call. If it's well over and there are signs of tampering, then they will point this out to the police and explain that it's no accident. In that scenario - the police will pretty much always prosecute. Their advice to me was to make sure your rifle never goes over 11.8 with the heaviest pellets you can find.

[tsg]

If one single pellet (out of 10 fired for each one ISTR) gives a chrono MV indicating an ME over 12 ft/lb, the law has been broken.

 

I was told it was 3 out of 10.

FOR PCPs, not always the heavier pellet gives higher energy. AA Field tend to give you close to maximum due to thin skirt creating a good seal on the barrel.

Bisley magnum give good power output as well.

Basically not all the valves work the same hence there is a variation. Try setting 11.7-11.8 with bisley magnum and test with heavier pellet and a light one just in case.

One of my PCP is tuned to give higher energy with JSB express than bisley magnum.

For springers lighter pellets give high readings indeed so try: RWS hobby, or H&N FTT green The Prometheus plastic pellets are not fair game as it is likely to give you high readings in springers.

if you do a lot of tinkering get a good selection of pellets for power testing: Bisley magnum, AA Field, H&N barracuda magnum, H&N FTT green, RWS Hobby Never tried Kodiak ones or piledriver although I should have..

 

Also beware that temperature affect readings.

 

Hope it helps

Sorin

Edited December 27, 2010 by tsg

[dirtdigger]

I was told it was 3 out of 10.

FOR PCPs, not always the heavier pellet gives higher energy. AA Field tend to give you close to maximum due to thin skirt creating a good seal on the barrel.

Bisley magnum give good power output as well.

Basically not all the valves work the same hence there is a variation. Try setting 11.7-11.8 with bisley magnum and test with heavier pellet and a light one just in case.

One of my PCP is tuned to give higher energy with JSB express than bisley magnum.

For springers lighter pellets give high readings indeed so try: RWS hobby, or H&N FTT green The Prometheus plastic pellets are not fair game as it is likely to give you high readings in springers.

if you do a lot of tinkering get a good selection of pellets for power testing: Bisley magnum, AA Field, H&N barracuda magnum, H&N FTT green, RWS Hobby Never tried Kodiak ones or piledriver although I should have..

 

Also beware that temperature affect readings.

 

Hope it helps

Sorin

it is the diameter of the pellet that gives a good seal and as .22 falls between 5.5 and 5.6 mm ,a heaviest 5.6 will have a higher ME than a lightest 5.5 ,all other fall some where in between .best to crono your rifle with some from each end of the scale and check the diameters of your rifle bore and ammo

[HW682]

As you want to get into semantics (as per your sub-title) please note that it is ftlb (or ft lb or or ft-lb or ft.lb) not ft/lb which is foot per pound. The "/" is a divide by symbol and results in a totally different meaning.

 

(eg Anyone used to estimating will be familiar with a man.day ie amount of work done by one man in one day. 12 mandays is different to 12 man per day. If the boss sends his estimator out to look at a job and he comes back and reports it is 12 man-days and we have got to be finished by the weekend { assume 4 days time} he knows he needs to commit at least 3 men. If the estimator comes back and says we have got to be done in 4 days and it needs 12 men per day it would be a totally different meaning).

 

man-day is not the same as man/day

ft-lb is not the same as ft/lb

Edited December 27, 2010 by HW682

[pabs]

We all know what is meant by Ftlb.

Edited December 28, 2010 by pabs

[kdubya]

I know the tester in my area and this is how he does it! the police give him the gun and any pellets (if any were in use at the time of seizure) he then tests those , he then tests another 3 times using another three readily available pellets, should anyone one of the pellets tested push it over 12lbs then its classed as a firearm and the doo doo you is in.

 

KW

[Dekers]

I know the tester in my area and this is how he does it! the police give him the gun and any pellets (if any were in use at the time of seizure) he then tests those , he then tests another 3 times using another three readily available pellets, should anyone one of the pellets tested push it over 12lbs then its classed as a firearm and the doo doo you is in.

 

KW

 

 

Nobody wants a problem and I am not disputing what you say, but how many pellets in total would be checked?

 

1 in (for example) 100 is not statistically relevant and could easily be down to a "faulty" pellet/reading/tester/etc. I struggle to see any conviction following such a result.

 

Just a thought.

 

Cheers

[kdubya]

Nobody wants a problem and I am not disputing what you say, but how many pellets in total would be checked?

 

1 in (for example) 100 is not statistically relevant and could easily be down to a "faulty" pellet/reading/tester/etc. I struggle to see any conviction following such a result.

 

Just a thought.

 

Cheers

 

one of each pellet if any that came with the gun, then one of each of the three readily available, why do you think that gun manufactures such as daystate send out new guns nearer to 10lbs than 12lbs, run close and stand the chance of going over? anyway if you dont want to shoot paper and want to shoot vermin go fac so much simpler.

 

KW

[Dekers]

one of each pellet if any that came with the gun, then one of each of the three readily available, why do you think that gun manufactures such as daystate send out new guns nearer to 10lbs than 12lbs, run close and stand the chance of going over? anyway if you dont want to shoot paper and want to shoot vermin go fac so much simpler.

 

KW

 

 

I have no dispute with power, or reasons for manufacturers levels etc, and totally get pre set levels (generally)! And agree with keeping within the law, and know the benefit of FAC air rifles etc, etc, I have no issue with any of that!

 

I just struggle with any court accepting a statistical one pellet report. That simply has no relevance!

 

Any prosecution must be based on relevant information, a one pellet squeak over 12ft lb has no statistical relevance and a Brief would pull it to pieces. If it was repeatable then fair comment, but ONE pellet can go over for many reasons, and many that have nothing to do with the gun!

 

ATB!

[The Duncan]

TBH, just like with FEO's and their judgements/interpretation varying from region to region, so do courts and their rulings.

It depends on whether the court being faced leans more towards the spirit of the law or the letter of the law.

From what UKPoacher said, he has very rarely nicked someone purely for their rifle being a shade over the limit.

 

As long as your air rifle is doing 11fpe and not much more, you shouldn't have much to worry about.

[kdubya]

I have no dispute with power, or reasons for manufacturers levels etc, and totally get pre set levels (generally)! And agree with keeping within the law, and know the benefit of FAC air rifles etc, etc, I have no issue with any of that!

 

I just struggle with any court accepting a statistical one pellet report. That simply has no relevance!

 

Any prosecution must be based on relevant information, a one pellet squeak over 12ft lb has no statistical relevance and a Brief would pull it to pieces. If it was repeatable then fair comment, but ONE pellet can go over for many reasons, and many that have nothing to do with the gun!

 

ATB!

 

dont know why your asking the question you seem to think you know the lot anyway? carry on cant be *****.

 

KW

[Dekers]

I have no dispute with power, or reasons for manufacturers levels etc, and totally get pre set levels (generally)! And agree with keeping within the law, and know the benefit of FAC air rifles etc, etc, I have no issue with any of that!

 

I just struggle with any court accepting a statistical one pellet report. That simply has no relevance!

 

Any prosecution must be based on relevant information, a one pellet squeak over 12ft lb has no statistical relevance and a Brief would pull it to pieces. If it was repeatable then fair comment, but ONE pellet can go over for many reasons, and many that have nothing to do with the gun!

 

ATB!

 

 

dont know why your asking the question you seem to think you know the lot anyway? carry on cant be *****.

 

KW

 

 

Chap, I am just trying to explore logically a lot of apparent comments on just over 12.0ft lb.

 

No, I don't know the lot, I just ask questions and make comments. The world seems **** scared of plod and apparently rolls overs and plays dead!

 

I have been around long enough to know they have no chance with one pellet being just over 12ft lb, and not repeated. (and do you seriously think any possible prosecution would follow from one pellet yourself)

 

You do not need to know it all or be a genius to work out that has no chance of any conviction in court!

 

ATB!

[pabs]

Well said Dekers! I thought this was a discussion going on here, not a sermon from someone??!!

I too would seriously doubt a conviction would follow a single pellet test over 12 ftlb!! CPS wouldn't even take it to court.

Edited December 30, 2010 by pabs

[kdubya]

Well said Dekers! I thought this was a discussion going on here, not a sermon from someone??!!

I too would seriously doubt a conviction would follow a single pellet test over 12 ftlb!! CPS wouldn't even take it to court.

 

it was not a sermon it was how one region does it simple as, I aint got a clue how others do it, not really bothered either, my attitude was from the remarks that he "knows better " if he knows better why ask the question in the first place? still it gets your post count up to 3000 in no time eh?

 

KW

[pabs]

it was not a sermon it was how one region does it simple as, I aint got a clue how others do it, not really bothered either, my attitude was from the remarks that he "knows better " if he knows better why ask the question in the first place? still it gets your post count up to 3000 in no time eh?

 

KW

 

Oh ! Your post is made more valid by your post count?! Someone has the temerity to disagree with you, or offer their opinion and you jump down their throat and apparently can't be ***** with this thread anymore ! So what you chamming on about in this thread then? Post a few more daft ones like the above and you'll soon hit your 3000, you'll feel extra important then.....

[FalconFN]

I've been testing pellets today and with Bis mags (10.5 grains) I'm getting 11.8 ft/lbs but with Bisley Long Range Gold (at 7.6 grains) I get 9.6ft/lbs.

 

If I had been using Bisley LRGs at 11.8ft/lbs and it was tested with Bis Mags It'd be nearer 14ft/lbs!