What experience for mentoring?

[Alycidon]

As far as I was aware a mentor was not a legal requirement under existing law and could be refused by the applicant, I am not aware of any new laws that have changed that. The problem is that of we shooters accept mentors then that will become law as 'you all do it anyway!!", its just another straw on our backs. Talking to Mike at BASC is by far the best way forward, excellent guy.

 

A

[Alycidon]

I think on these lines too,the police will not be interrogating the landowner on the deer damage or numbers.

 

They certainly will, the Police as a whole wish to see fewer privately owned firearms not more. As long as you have deer on the ground having a shootable surplus does not really matter, just make sure your landowner tells the FEO that you do have permission to shoot them.

 

A

[Redgum]

They certainly will, the Police as a whole wish to see fewer privately owned firearms not more. As long as you have deer on the ground having a shootable surplus does not really matter, just make sure your landowner tells the FEO that you do have permission to shoot them.

 

A

 

So whats your point. Are you saying,' They certainly will be interrogating the landowner on the deer damage and numbers but it doesnt really matter as long as you have permission?

[Dekers]

I have just had a letter back from my firearms Office about my .243 variation. One of the things that they are saying is that the chap who was willing to mentor me has not got enough experience. He has a full Open FAC for a .243 with Deer as a condition and has his DSC1 - How much experience is required please? Can anyone advise?

 

Not read all the responses so if I have missed something, then apologies..................

 

This is all down to individual regions, once again a load if interpretation!

 

The DSC is not required at all for Deer shooting, so how can it possibly be required in any way for mentoring.

 

I have been a Deer Mentor in Thames Valley, Wiltshire and Met Police areas, I have no DSC.

 

Those Police regions are all more than happy with me to be a Mentor and have accepted unequivocally my views and assessments of everyone I have trained.....the WHOLE SYSTEM needs looking at!

[Frenchieboy]

If this creates you a problem , i am not too far away and could help out if your stalking is not too far away. PM me if required i have held a level 2 for quite a number of years and Lancs have a full file on me

 

Thank you for this very kind offer but I now have what should be an acceptable alternative mentor as stated 4 or 5 posts prior to your offer. As he has been accepted as a mentor for another FAC holder who is also woth the Lancashire Area and was mentored for a .243 then there is no reason whatsoever why they should not accept the alternative mentor I am offering. I have put this alternative in writing ready to be sent tomorrow morning.

Once again though Kent, thank you for your kind offer!

[kent]

Not read all the responses so if I have missed something, then apologies..................

 

This is all down to individual regions, once again a load if interpretation!

 

The DSC is not required at all for Deer shooting, so how can it possibly be required in any way for mentoring.

 

I have been a Deer Mentor in Thames Valley, Wiltshire and Met Police areas, I have no DSC.

 

Those Police regions are all more than happy with me to be a Mentor and have accepted unequivocally my views and assessments of everyone I have trained.....the WHOLE SYSTEM needs looking at!

 

Get used to it, this is the modern world were you need to wave a qualification to flush your own toilet - if you are so experianced why did you not apply for grandfarther rights at the appropriate time?

[inthedark]

Dear Frenchieboy.

Having just read the H O guidelines it's my considered opinion that you're firked, good and proper, even though it says that applications should be considered from the applicants viewpoint and advises Chief Constables to be cautious about adding extra conditions, as per -

 

As the courts have held

(R v Cambridge Crown Court ex parte Buckland,

1998) that there is no right of appeal against

the imposition of conditions (as opposed to

a refusal to grant or renew a certificate)

chief officers will wish to be cautious in

imposing conditions that might amount to

a constructive refusal to grant or renew a

certificate, that is additional conditions that

would make possession or use so difficult as

to be redundant in practice.

 

cos there's a 'minimising risk to public safety' catchall at para 10.35 which will cover their desire to shaft you. Good luck, ans I sincerely hope you win through.

[Dekers]

Not read all the responses so if I have missed something, then apologies..................

 

This is all down to individual regions, once again a load if interpretation!

 

The DSC is not required at all for Deer shooting, so how can it possibly be required in any way for mentoring.

 

I have been a Deer Mentor in Thames Valley, Wiltshire and Met Police areas, I have no DSC.

 

Those Police regions are all more than happy with me to be a Mentor and have accepted unequivocally my views and assessments of everyone I have trained.....the WHOLE SYSTEM needs looking at!

 

 

Get used to it, this is the modern world were you need to wave a qualification to flush your own toilet - if you are so experianced why did you not apply for grandfarther rights at the appropriate time?

 

 

It seems I don't need to get used to anything much, I am the Mentor with no formal qualifications to speak of, and the Police are happy to listen to me, don't ask, I don't know why either!

 

[Bazooka Joe]

thank christ I live in an area that is reasonable with larger calibre applications never seen so much tripe and unwritten stealth tactics being used to bring in not required "conditions" it really is time that the likes of basc stopped rolling over to get its belly tickled, and stopped rather than supported the slow but steady encroachment of mentoring or dsc1 conditions etc etc, before the likes of .243 are granted.

 

KW

 

 

As above, seems to me FB you've made a rod for your own back by handing over to much info, I'm not having a pop by the way.

 

Mentors/DSC-1/Shooting Logs are not required, good reason is the issue.

 

 

but when I originally applied for my 243 the FA dept said they would require DSC1 and even then would require a mentor on top, called BASC and they said the police could do that and I would just have to go with the flow.

 

 

And that's the biggest load of bolllocks I've heard. If that's the advice they are giving......WELL...!!!

 

I've recently had issues FB with the FLO & one phone call sorted it. You are a member of SACS, phone Ian Clark...this is one association that WILL PHONE A FLO ON YOUR BEHALF, & enlighten then where they are WRONG.

 

BASC won't phone on your behalf,

[Frenchieboy]

Dear Frenchieboy.

Having just read the H O guidelines it's my considered opinion that you're firked, good and proper, even though it says that applications should be considered from the applicants viewpoint and advises Chief Constables to be cautious about adding extra conditions, as per -

 

As the courts have held

(R v Cambridge Crown Court ex parte Buckland,

1998) that there is no right of appeal against

the imposition of conditions (as opposed to

a refusal to grant or renew a certificate)

chief officers will wish to be cautious in

imposing conditions that might amount to

a constructive refusal to grant or renew a

certificate, that is additional conditions that

would make possession or use so difficult as

to be redundant in practice.

 

cos there's a 'minimising risk to public safety' catchall at para 10.35 which will cover their desire to shaft you. Good luck, ans I sincerely hope you win through.

 

I'm sorry but I don't quite realise where you are going with this one mate! I accept that there needs to be conditions in most things that we do. I am not questioning the need for a mentor, if you read through my older posts I normally advocate the use of mentors for new shooters. As such I have even come up with and suggested in writing of an alternative mentor which if they refused would make them quite hypocritical as they have accpeted him as a mentor for a .243 before. I don't see how there is a public safety issue here as the land has been cleared for a larger calibre than I am asking for and I am accpeting being conditioned with a mentor even though I have been shooting on these permissions regularly with my HRM and a .222! I am not even questioning the non-right to appeal against a condition, there are ways legal to argue around "potential conditions" before they are imposed if you have the right legal advice and legal team behind you! What I am questioning is their general attitude and saying that I am not prepared to continue jumping through every hoop that they put in front of me every time they decide that they feel like shouting "jump"! That does not make me a threat to public safety, just someone that is willing to fight for their rights!

[Scully]

I honestly think frenchieboy,that until you stop trying to meet them halfway you're just going to go round in circles.Just tell them you've had enough and are seeking legal advice....but you have to mean it.And accept no more 'shooting logs' or whatever.

[hogey]

I have held a SGC for 35 years and an FAC for 5.Just put in for renewal with a variation for a .243.

Took 12 weeks to come back but issued for .243 without any conditions imposed at all.

I was suprised but well pleased.

Obviously other Police Force areas have thier own rules.

Hope you get yours sorted frenchie.

[Redgum]

As above, seems to me FB you've made a rod for your own back by handing over to much info, I'm not having a pop by the way.

 

Mentors/DSC-1/Shooting Logs are not required, good reason is the issue.

 

 

 

 

 

And that's the biggest load of bolllocks I've heard. If that's the advice they are giving......WELL...!!!

 

I've recently had issues FB with the FLO & one phone call sorted it. You are a member of SACS, phone Ian Clark...this is one association that WILL PHONE A FLO ON YOUR BEHALF, & enlighten then where they are WRONG.

 

BASC won't phone on your behalf,

As I said in my post,BASC have helped me out on numerous occasions, on this one however they obviously thought there was no point, additional advice was maybe to pay for a few paid stalks to give my variation a bit more wieght on the experience side. I had an aweful lot of bad and downright stupid advice from others, all this, ITS YOUR RIGHT,THREATEN LEGAL ACTION will at least put you back to the bottom of the pile of paper on the FEO's desk. If the Firearms Dept wants you to stick a feather up your rear and walk round in fish nets whistling for a week then you just have to work with skill and damage limitation.The police unfortunatly have the ball in their court, they decided if you have good reason to possess a certain calibre end of. Its not a right we are all just born with and I believe once you loose good relashions with your department you will be marked down as a trouble maker, not the type of person who should maybe have a firearm at all. Take the open ticket business, there is no legal time limit on that one, which could mean the police could open a ticket in a week or ten years,if the FEO doesnt particularly like you then it will be on the longer side. Initial application for my 243 was met with, you cannot change a variation for a fac air rifle for a centrefire, you need a DSC1 and you will need a mentor, all from a FEO that I have known for years. I didnt row with him, did the DSC1, never paid for the variation and had it opened in 6 months and still have a good relashionship with my FEO.

[Scully]

You can of course,as has been suggested,just take whatever **** licensing decides to dish out to you,personally I don't much care what licensing think of me.We've had a few 'moments' in the past,but by and large we get on well,but I wont be messed around at the whim of someone for no genuine reason,and this sounds very unreasonable to me.Good luck.

[Dekers]

I have held a SGC for 35 years and an FAC for 5.Just put in for renewal with a variation for a .243.

Took 12 weeks to come back but issued for .243 without any conditions imposed at all.

I was suprised but well pleased.

Obviously other Police Force areas have thier own rules.

Hope you get yours sorted frenchie.

 

As a matter of interest do you have Deer listed against the .243?

 

It seems that fox is not too much of an issue generally (or sometimes the smaller deer, Muntjac/CWD) but when you want Deer added it becomes like the Holy Grail and many regions insist you jump through a whole load of hoops!

[hogey]

As a matter of interest do you have Deer listed against the .243?

 

It seems that fox is not too much of an issue generally (or sometimes the smaller deer, Muntjac/CWD) but when you want Deer added it becomes like the Holy Grail and many regions insist you jump through a whole load of hoops!

 

Hi

 

Yes I have deer listed on my certificate

[Scully]

As a matter of interest do you have Deer listed against the .243?

 

It seems that fox is not too much of an issue generally (or sometimes the smaller deer, Muntjac/CWD) but when you want Deer added it becomes like the Holy Grail and many regions insist you jump through a whole load of hoops!

 

It would seem so dekers,depending on which licensing authority you come under....could this be a rural versus urban condition,with those living in large rural areas less likely to have this condition imposed?I don't know,just a thought.My .243 is listed for deer,fox and vermin along with 'lawful authority' stipulation.No mentoring or any other conditions were even mentioned when I applied.Very straightforward,you would think it's either a necessity or it isn't,wouldn't you?Why are Licensing from different regions all singing from different sheets?

[Dekers]

Hi

 

Yes I have deer listed on my certificate

 

In the great scheme of things from what we hear around the country these days you have done well

[hogey]

In the great scheme of things from what we hear around the country these days you have done well

 

yes I think I have but my application fullfilled the requirements to have a .243

should be the same all over the country as surely the requirements are the law are they not

[al4x]

there is a thin line for the police to tread between being accountable for licensing decisions and letting shooters have what they want. Mentoring to an extent makes common sense if you can't show enough experience to be safe on your own, personally I've progressed from one gun to another and never had issues with variations. Maybe its my force maybe not but fundamentally with my .243 I asked for it for deer and when we had the chat I said I wanted to take up stalking and buy some days and gain experience that way end of chat. I have a condition that purely says when accompanied so I can stalk wherever with someone. In this case I can only assume there is more to it either an issue with the mentor or they aren't happy with some of the ground etc possibly someone has told them it doesn't have deer on or similar as from what we've heard it seems a little unreasonable

[Dekers]

yes I think I have but my application fullfilled the requirements to have a .243

should be the same all over the country as surely the requirements are the law are they not

 

 

Another subject that has been debated at length, the Law is the same throughout England and Wales, with a few variations (but very similar) in Scotland.

 

Simple fact is INTERPRETATION by the various regions, there is an obvious need for a certain level of interpretation but the variations are far to much and lead to big divides in many areas!

 

Fulfilling the requirements for any calibre is unfortunately not a guarantee of it being granted!

[njc110381]

That really doesn't make sense to me. I'd say that once you've shown evidence of a need for said firearm, offerred a suitable mentor and have suitable ground for it's use then they can't turn you down. You're certainly no risk to the public with a .243 any more than you are with a .222, so that route could quite easily be stamped on.

 

I think at this point I would instruct them to stop ******* around and grant what you have requested or refuse it so you can seek legal advice. I wouldn't be bothered with all this messing about as you clearly have a strong case and they know it.

[MC]

Absolutely, Tell them to stop ******* around. You obviously have such a strong case they feel that something isn't right and are declining your requests.

 

Lets face it unless you are loaded you aren't going to challenge them in court as the costs will be prohibitive and noone is going to get legal aid over it. There is far more to this than meets the eye as every force knows if you have justification then they cannot refuse unless they have good reason. Maybe they feel you haven't

[inthedark]

I'm sorry but I don't quite realise where you are going with this one mate! I accept that there needs to be conditions in most things that we do. I am not questioning the need for a mentor, if you read through my older posts I normally advocate the use of mentors for new shooters. As such I have even come up with and suggested in writing of an alternative mentor which if they refused would make them quite hypocritical as they have accpeted him as a mentor for a .243 before. I don't see how there is a public safety issue here as the land has been cleared for a larger calibre than I am asking for and I am accpeting being conditioned with a mentor even though I have been shooting on these permissions regularly with my HRM and a .222! I am not even questioning the non-right to appeal against a condition, there are ways legal to argue around "potential conditions" before they are imposed if you have the right legal advice and legal team behind you! What I am questioning is their general attitude and saying that I am not prepared to continue jumping through every hoop that they put in front of me every time they decide that they feel like shouting "jump"! That does not make me a threat to public safety, just someone that is willing to fight for their rights!

 

You're whole approach is right, and there should be no issue with your application. The point was that however hard you look for a solution in the HO guidelines, there's always a term that the FLO can use to support their point of view, and you cant mount a legal challenge.

IMO you're left with your communication skills, and 'tell them to stop ******* about' aint the best advice for your route to success.

I wish you good luck once again, a happy new year!

[markbivvy]

Any news Peter please.