Wierd one today with the HMR

[Davy Holt]

Hiya,

 

I had the HMR out to play today and took a shot at a woodie just one the 150 yard mark, I never seen the bullet strike but it started to do back flips so I assumed I had got the head shot I was trying for. However when I walked out to collect it there was a completly intact woodie lying there stone dead, I checked it over and over and the only damage I could find was a small tuft of feathers missing from the nape of it's neck but the skin below it was undamaged however you could clearly see bruising below the skin.

 

So I'm a wee bit confused as to what actualy killed the bird all I can think of is the bullet was close enough for the shock wave to cause terminal damage to the bird.

[CZ550Kevlar]

Had this before with a magpie once and a rabbit, no sign of blood etc but definitely deader than a dead thing.

[Billy.]

but definitely deader than a dead thing.

 

[Dave-G]

You almost missed it.

[kent]

seen this more than the odd occasion (quite a lot actually on crows), the bullet broke up failing to get through the feathers and also penetrate flesh. soft objects can give considrable resistance to bullets at times (consider the first bullet proof vests were made of layers of silk) However the clout it received in the process was enough to kill it. i know this sounds wacky i though so myself on the first occasion but when you have seen it a good few times you know it aint just a fluke. i have never seen it with any other gun just the 17 hmr. I am also thinking towards the fact (not yet proven) that sedge grass can ricochet the bullets, though they are quite good on contact with harder unseen objects like stone ( not perfect just better than most). funny things happen when you push a pill too fast for a similar instance when the 6.5 x 284 became the thing in f-class i saw bullets tear themselves up in flight (without contacting anything at all) just from too fast a muzzle velocity and twist rate, you could often just see what looked like a puff of smoke en-route and no contact with the paper

[Frenchieboy]

That doesn't sound too whacky at all Kent! I have not experienced it myself but because the 17HMR can frafment so easily why, if it has to pass through a clump of sedge grass (Or similar), should it not start to fragment and then when it hits the bird's feathers completely fragment, knocking the bird for 6 without actually breaking the skin - More so in crows who have particularly tough skin?

On the reverse side of the coin I have had a lot of Federals (17 HMR) that had hit rabbits square (Front facing chest shots) on at ranges of about 80 - 120 yards that have passed straight through the entire length of the body without fragmenting at all - Maybe the heads (Or jackets) on federals are just marginally harder than those on Hornadys, I'm not sure but to me when I am out on "vermin control" dead is dead and that is all that matters!

With larger calibre rifles I believe that it has something to do with the spin rate that can make a bullet fragment before it actually hits the target which is why most people ask what the rifling is in a centre fire rifle barrel before they but it - I am sure that some of the members who are much more knowledgable on balistics than I am will correct me on that one!

[Davy Holt]

Hiya,

seen this more than the odd occasion (quite a lot actually on crows), the bullet broke up failing to get through the feathers and also penetrate flesh. soft objects can give considrable resistance to bullets at times (consider the first bullet proof vests were made of layers of silk) However the clout it received in the process was enough to kill it. i know this sounds wacky i though so myself on the first occasion but when you have seen it a good few times you know it aint just a fluke. i have never seen it with any other gun just the 17 hmr. I am also thinking towards the fact (not yet proven) that sedge grass can ricochet the bullets, though they are quite good on contact with harder unseen objects like stone ( not perfect just better than most). funny things happen when you push a pill too fast for a similar instance when the 6.5 x 284 became the thing in f-class i saw bullets tear themselves up in flight (without contacting anything at all) just from too fast a muzzle velocity and twist rate, you could often just see what looked like a puff of smoke en-route and no contact with the paper

 

Yup I can see what you are saying however the problem is that other than taking the tuft of feathers out of the side of it's neck I completely missed the bird so it kinda rules out lack of penetration or the bullet fragmenting in mid air.

[davies8990]

hello

i have had this happen a few times to with my 243, on a rabbit and a fox no damage, blood, nothing really wierd!!

[Catweazle]

It doesn't seem likely that an HMR that will punch a hole through a 50p piece would bounce off a pigeons neck feathers, so I'll go for the supersonic crack scrambling something vital in the spinal cord area.

[killer_pigeon]

pigeon probably had a heart attack from the supersonic crack

[Redgum]

Had my hmr in the hide to shoot those birds that land miles out beyond the deeks. Shot at a pigeon, it tumbled on the ground a bit,righted itself and flew off just a few feet from the ground. I watched it do a wide arch,never gaining height, when it was almost out of sight it hit the ground like a rag. Out of interest I went and picked up on the way back to the truck, couldnt find amark on it so decided to pluck it, neck n all. It a had a very small hole going through its windpipe and out the other side,poor thing must have suffocated or slowly bled internally. Had the same with the 12gauge, those birds that skyward in ever decreasing circles just to come back down like a stone, just a single pellet in the head.

[Bewsher500]

On the reverse side of the coin I have had a lot of Federals (17 HMR) that had hit rabbits square (Front facing chest shots) on at ranges of about 80 - 120 yards that have passed straight through the entire length of the body without fragmenting at all - Maybe the heads (Or jackets) on federals are just marginally harder than those on Hornadys,

I though they were all made by CCI in the same factory?

[kent]

Hiya,

 

 

Yup I can see what you are saying however the problem is that other than taking the tuft of feathers out of the side of it's neck I completely missed the bird so it kinda rules out lack of penetration or the bullet fragmenting in mid air.

 

when stationary resting they put thier head down into the feathers at the top of the chest, that was my thoughts not it broke up in flight

[Davy Holt]

Hiya,

when stationary resting they put thier head down into the feathers at the top of the chest, that was my thoughts not it broke up in flight

 

Right got you,however the bird in question was actively feeding at the time I took the shot... personally I think catweazle may have hit the hail on the head.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Davy Holt

[.philmypower.]

Im glad you brought up this topic as the very same thing happened to me a while back, i just thought i was going crazy.

[shalfordninja33]

Do you think it could be anything to do with Hydrostatic shock? Remote wounding affects. See the link below?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

[pabs]

It doesn't seem likely that an HMR that will punch a hole through a 50p piece would bounce off a pigeons neck feathers, so I'll go for the supersonic crack scrambling something vital in the spinal cord area.

 

This ^^

 

Had a HMR punch through my 4mm soft steel target holder at 90 yards last weekend. No way feathers would fragment the bullet. Just no way.

Maybe went through the feathers super close to the neck and the shockwave did the damage??

[Gimlet]

Hiya,

 

I had the HMR out to play today and took a shot at a woodie just one the 150 yard mark, I never seen the bullet strike but it started to do back flips so I assumed I had got the head shot I was trying for. However when I walked out to collect it there was a completly intact woodie lying there stone dead, I checked it over and over and the only damage I could find was a small tuft of feathers missing from the nape of it's neck but the skin below it was undamaged however you could clearly see bruising below the skin.

 

So I'm a wee bit confused as to what actualy killed the bird all I can think of is the bullet was close enough for the shock wave to cause terminal damage to the bird.

 

Thought I'd open this topic again because a similar thing happened to me last night. Oddly though, it was with a .22lr.

Walking out to a shoot I came across a rabbit in plain sight sat in the middle of the track like a lemon. Too good to turn down. I estimated range at 100 yrds, possibly 110, allowed my normal 100 yrd holdover plus a smidge and let the shot go. Looking at the strike through the scope it seemed I'd slightly overestimated range. There was no tell-tale 'thwack', the bullet spat dust a yard behind the rabbit and a whisker above its head and screamed off in a ricochet. A clear miss high you'd have thought. Except the rabbit flew on to its back like it had been spanked with a shovel and gave just one feeble twitch before lying completely still. Stone dead, clean as a whistle. When I picked it up there was not a mark on it. No broken bones, no blood, not a hair out of place. Skinned it this morning and skinned the head as well. Half way up the back of the skull between the base of the ears there was the tiniest pin-hole like a no 7 shotgun pellet, a tiny bruise and a bead of blood just appearing but no exit wound.

I've shot high before on rabbits that were closer than I thought and only just clipped the top of the head, but the bullet ploughs a hole through the skull like an apple-corer. I can't acount for this. The bullet clearly struck the ground behind the rabbit so unless it somehow managed to deflect a shard of flint backwards, which doesn't seem possible, I'm baffled. Still, lovely supple little spring doe, nice and tender. Stir-fry tonight.

[pavman]

Hiya,

 

 

Right got you,however the bird in question was actively feeding at the time I took the shot... personally I think catweazle may have hit the hail on the head.

 

 

so the bird was feeding (head bobbing about) and you take the head shot you tried for @150 yards (woodies head about the size of 10P coin) and a moving target......

 

Fantastic

Edited May 23, 2011 by pavman