njc110381 Posted August 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I did post the same question elsewhere yes. Why? Well because I wanted a decent answer perhaps?! I knew this topic would go to the dogs like it always does on here when you ask anything! I posted the question because I wanted to know what people liked and disliked about the calibre. Personally I don't like it. Perhaps I didn't give it a decent run before I gave up on it but that changes nothing. I wanted the gun as a Deer rifle pure and simple and don't "make do" with one tool for every job. We had this conversation at the rifle range on the weekend and general opinion seemed to be that it kicks like a b****** compared to most Fox calibres, and it's too light to be perfect for Deer. I don't like compromise and every rifle I have is ideal for it's intended use. I don't drink much, I don't smoke and I don't gamble. I like to buy a few guns and I like to talk about them. It's a shame it's so hard for some of the members here to understand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I did post the same question elsewhere yes. Why? Well because I wanted a decent answer perhaps?! I knew this topic would go to the dogs like it always does on here when you ask anything! I posted the question because I wanted to know what people liked and disliked about the calibre. Personally I don't like it. Perhaps I didn't give it a decent run before I gave up on it but that changes nothing. I wanted the gun as a Deer rifle pure and simple and don't "make do" with one tool for every job. We had this conversation at the rifle range on the weekend and general opinion seemed to be that it kicks like a b****** compared to most Fox calibres, and it's too light to be perfect for Deer. I don't like compromise and every rifle I have is ideal for it's intended use. I don't drink much, I don't smoke and I don't gamble. I like to buy a few guns and I like to talk about them. It's a shame it's so hard for some of the members here to understand that. i have found that it kicks quite a bit too if i had to only ever use one gun i would have my 223 no doubt but i got my 243 remmy 700 just to chop it to a 6mmbr in time but for now ime wanging lots of privv cheap ammo and an loveing it, however its not realy the best gun for all round i shoot stags hear up to 20st and they can and do run 200m some times even with a cracking heart shot! an it the thick forestry plantation i shoot in you have almost lost it. in this case some thing big to realy knock the wind out of them (.300) would to me be the best all round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I can understand your frustration njc. I've never understood why you'd want to take a 30 cal chamber and casing, sleeve it down to 20 cal keeping all the fire, fury and recoil but losing the 30 cal impact at the target. .308 and .30-06 are both more versatile calibres than their .243 and .270 derivatives. The loading options for both are huge but the .308 chambering is a naturally sweeter shooter. Who would buy an SLK Merc with a Ford Focus engine in it? I wouldn't swap my .308 for a .243 And I don't know why people think a .308 is a heavy kicker. It ain't. .338WM kicks. A .308 is just a friendly nudge. Take more meat with the potatoes. In any case when I've got a deer in the sights and I take the shot, I hear no bang and feel no recoil, I'm too busy watching the shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I can't understand why some of the replies are so barbed and borderline unpleasant. The OP has started a discussion. If he doesn't like your pet calibre, I'm sure its not personal! You'd think from some of the replies he'd insulted your Mrs! Im sure you're capable of defending the .243's honour without resorting to bitchiness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I did post the same question elsewhere yes. Why? Well because I wanted a decent answer perhaps?! I knew this topic would go to the dogs like it always does on here when you ask anything! I posted the question because I wanted to know what people liked and disliked about the calibre. Personally I don't like it. Perhaps I didn't give it a decent run before I gave up on it but that changes nothing. I wanted the gun as a Deer rifle pure and simple and don't "make do" with one tool for every job. We had this conversation at the rifle range on the weekend and general opinion seemed to be that it kicks like a b****** compared to most Fox calibres, and it's too light to be perfect for Deer. I don't like compromise and every rifle I have is ideal for it's intended use. I guess the element of sarcasm was due to reading it on two forums and knowing your issues were down to bullet choice. Then past history of repeated gun swapping with justification for buying on here first then the process then this guns no good and I'm getting this because its better. knowing a month or two down the line that will be in for the chop. The simple answer as Charlie pointed out and a few before the reason its so popular is the fact that most people shoot more foxes than deer who have one. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd assume you mostly shoot roe and muntjac, if you can't roll them over satisfactorily with a .243 its not the guns fault, if you loose a few ribs then it just shows its doing damage which I struggle with linking to it being too light to do the job. If possible I put the bullet just behind the front leg and so far no issues with loosing the shoulder as well. As for kicking like a ****** refer to the 338 and moles incident I'd hazard a guess that kicks more The simple reason some of us mere mortals "make do" is personally I like decent glass on a rifle for deer and foxes, start doubling up and the costs get silly. I have one nice rifle decent scope and mod and you don't see much change from 2.5k I could buy two setups for that bung on cheap scopes and then wonder at last light why on earth I'd done it. Without doubt the .243 is one of the best foxing calibers going it hits far harder than .22cf and you have a huge range of bullets you can use. Deer wise its far from marginal especially when you bear in mind most people use theirs a fair bit rather than a deer rifle that comes out occasionally. When you are used to shooting foxes with a rifle at anything from nearly point blank to 250 yards plus you don't tend to put bullets in the wrong place. All that said if I had a load of red or sika stalking and wanted a dedicated deer caliber for them I would choose something else and put a 6x42 on, but that would definitely not come out lamping in the meantime I know what comes out of the cabinet first as it covers everything you'll find in Hertfordshire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Can we can stick to replies regarding the original question and not get personal please boys and girls - thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 The original question was why is the .243 so popular as a deer rifle. The answer seems to be that people choose it as a cross-over rifle for deer and foxes. But I think firearms legislation, specifically the 'reason to posess' clause, has forced obsessive attention on precisely matching a calibre to the quarry, by both FAOs and applicants. There seems to be an unspoken fear that a rifle that is more powerful than the quarry strictly demands is somehow more dangerous. This is nonsense. It doesn't matter what you shoot a fox with as long as the shot is safe and the fox is killed humanely. You're (presumably) not going to eat it. An irresponsible shot with a .243 at 1800ftlb is arguably more dangerous than the same shot taken at 4000ftlb with a .375H&H because it is flatter and will travel further before it hits the deck. (And no, I wouldn't recommend a .375H&H for foxing!). In my opinion it is better to have somewhat more power than you anticipate needing and deploying it with good marksmanship, rather than finding yourself regularly shooting at the limits of your rifles capabilities. This is a most undesirable position to be in and is an unintended consequence of legislation. However Al4X made a very valid point. A .243 is fine in his part of the country becausr Roe will be the largest species he encounters. Here in Dorset the species will be Roe, Sika and the occaisional Fallow, so Roe will be the smallest species. So a 30 cal is the better choice. I think as a rule of thumb, .240/1000ftlb is ok up to roe, .240/1700ftlb+ for anything bigger. So Scottish law probably has it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I guess I do have it coming to me a bit with all the messing about I do, and lets be honest I'll sit and take a bit of p*** taking any time. I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me usually but I think this topic, and perhaps with the way the .338 mole post went off, I'm feeling a bit touchy. The Mole picture actually made me laugh - I think that's how it was supposed to be read and lets face it, it was pretty amusing. What I don't like is the digs - "you can take a Horse to water but you can't make it drink"... That's getting a bit personal and I don't take that so well! Anyway, I'll leave it at that. I still don't think I've changed that many guns because I didn't like them? Only the .243, the others I've just fancied a change but the .243 after four types of bullet and still not liking it, I was ready to move to something I felt happier with (bigger and slower like the 6.5 was). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 wait till you don't like the drop on it to be fair that little dig was simply because Kent kept saying this is what you want to use and it will be fine and you kept using lighter bullets It is meant a lot in jest but not entirely there is a good reason its one of the most used rounds in the uk and thats partly due to foxes and then because a lot of people don't find it lacking. After all you can get up towards 2000ftlbs with the right bullet and it will be one without a lot of drop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) I think it's a popular round because of the operating envelope it has if compared to other calibres, it can be used on anything from bunnies to reds and will do from 0 - 1000yards on targets if required, it is a mild recoil and rounds can be bought in factory form from as little as £0.50/round and loaded for even less apparently.... Really the only thing you can't shoot with it is boar and plains/big game.... a 308 will do this but there is a little more recoil, it's more expensive to feed and i don't think the ammo is as common for 308 now as it maybe was.... i think in this years red and roe/deer review the most common calibre used was .243win.....but this could be due to roe being commonly shot/culled... not sure how the cost compares to other calibres as i have never really looked at the price of same model rifles in different calibres. Regards, Gixer Edited August 2, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Njc, just having a laugh mate the mole was always going to come back and haunt you- i doubt you have heard the last of that one People talking guns and calibres on a shooting range is real dodgey territory, most present won't have shot more than a small handfull of deer and many will assume from what others tell them who have about as much experiance. In the right hands a .222 will drop the biggest Red stags on the spot, now thats a heck of a lot lighter calibre than a .243". Its not legal in the UK for such a use but it will do it, the big proviso is "in the right hands", the NZ goverment actually issued this even smaller calibre to it's deer cullers in the days prior to the Helicopter operations took over. If you shoot any deer through the heart it don't matter if you have a 6mm hole through it or a .338 hole, the result is the same. Running is just a fact that happens with heart lung shots regardless, BDS research by Hugh Rose demonstated as such in the past. I feel it has more to do with if the deer is aware of your presence. Blood stike is of course better with the bigger calibre but this means energy is lost to thin air on the other side and has no part to play in the myth of "knock down". The .243" will never give the blood strike that a bigger calibre will but it will depart plenty of energy internally, this is were meat damage and correct bullet choice come into play or you will spoil much meat on the oposite flank turning it to a bloodshot slimey mess if the oposite leg is too far back or the angle bad when the shot is taken. The other option to totally nulify calibre as always is alternative placement as you don't want them doing a death rush over a steep incline etc. If you stuggle to find your Deer after the shot and require a bigger hole for the blood to drain out of get a dog or at least have access to one I peronally spent a fair amount of my early years thinking i needed a bigger calibre for large deer when all i needed was more experiance and perhaps a less bloodthirsty attitude as to when to take the shot and better knoledge of terminal effects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 technically any hole in the heart will drop any deer, it is after all lack of blood pressure which you need to carry oxygen around your body that makes you fall down! Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 technically any hole in the heart will drop any deer, it is after all lack of blood pressure which you need to carry oxygen around your body that makes you fall down! Regards, Gixer True to a point, it has to destroy the heart though not just puncture it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I think it's a popular round because of the operating envelope it has if compared to other calibres, it can be used on anything from bunnies to reds and will do from 0 - 1000yards on targets if required, it is a mild recoil and rounds can be bought in factory form from as little as £0.50/round and loaded for even less apparently.... Really the only thing you can't shoot with it is boar and plains/big game.... a 308 will do this but there is a little more recoil, it's more expensive to feed and i don't think the ammo is as common for 308 now as it maybe was.... i think in this years red and roe/deer review the most common calibre used was .243win.....but this could be due to roe being commonly shot/culled... not sure how the cost compares to other calibres as i have never really looked at the price of same model rifles in different calibres. Regards, Gixer Was going to add my two pennerth worth but the above just about sums it up...the .243Win does everything i need of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Going back to NJC's original post asking why a newbie often asks the question .243 or .308. Well, I think we have all answered it for him. One would presume that the newbie stalker is a keen vermin and fox shooter and fancies adding deer to his quarry list, he will have a .22c/f and is looking to get a suitable deer legal caliber. Like many he will not shoot many deer in a year and also like many he wants value for money. He knows that a .270 or .308 is a cracking deer caliber but can he justify one sitting in his cabinet for the few outings on red or sikka he will make during the year. It therefore occurs to him that a .243 may well suit his needs as it makes for a super vermin/foxing musket and is deer legal and if he was to go down this route he could change his .22c/f for a .243 and he's sorted. Like many he goes down the .243 route. He probably made the right decision because if and when he gets smitten by stalking he can add a 7.08 or one of NJC's .338's to his collection for his stalking needs and he's still got a .243 as a cracking vermin gun. If stalking is not for him he's still got his .243 for vermin. Beware the one gun man !!!, he knows how to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I guess it does make sense if you want to shoot Foxes and Deer. I do look at things from the view of a person who doesn't need much of an excuse to change things! I think all that did it for me really is that I never ruined a carcass with my 6.5. I didn't shoot loads of Deer with it either, but the ones I did shoot always went perfectly. I always got a very clean punch through just behind the shoulders, The Deer either fell over or took off for maybe a dozen paces then tripped and didn't get up. The .243 had a bad start with a Munty shot with a varmint bullet. To be honest I got what I expected there but when I upped the weight it kept happening. I suppose I didn't up it enough but thought that 90gr should be enough. The gun didn't like the 100gr stuff I tried in it and I didn't want to waste too much money trying to find something heavier that it did get on with. All this time I had in my head that the 6.5 or my combi (7x57) always did better - that really didn't help. I think if I would have listened to the experienced blokes who offered me advice (and I do appreciate it) I would have found something, but to be honest by that point I'd just gone off of it and all I wanted to do is go back to something I knew and was comfortable with. It turned out to be 7-08, but only because I wanted a Tikka 595 and that's the calibre a nice rifle came up in. I would have just as happily had another 6.5, or a .260. Anything that throws a bit more weight as standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Don't get me started about 6.5's, I sold mine because I felt it was an unnecessary caliber between 6mm and 30 and decided to swap it for a Fireball which I now doubt I will ever bother with !!. Worst thing I ever did, oh how I miss that gun. I blame you for sowing the seeds of the "keep changing your gun syndrome" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 njc, i'm sorry i made you sell me your swede mate, if it's any consolation then i'll just tell you that it's a bloody good gun! not a lot of drop over 200yds with 140gr remy core loct, and very nearly pinpoint accurate with factory ammo that i didn't feel it necessary to start reloading for her. thanx bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 njc, i'm sorry i made you sell me your swede mate, if it's any consolation then i'll just tell you that it's a bloody good gun! not a lot of drop over 200yds with 140gr remy core loct, and very nearly pinpoint accurate with factory ammo that i didn't feel it necessary to start reloading for her. thanx bud Harsh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 njc, i'm sorry i made you sell me your swede mate, if it's any consolation then i'll just tell you that it's a bloody good gun! not a lot of drop over 200yds with 140gr remy core loct, and very nearly pinpoint accurate with factory ammo that i didn't feel it necessary to start reloading for her. thanx bud Well I just got in from the pub so I need to say this carefully so as not to cause offence..... The second word is "off"..... Yep, that covers it! Glad you like the rifle and it treats you well. It certainly was/is a good one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I blame you for sowing the seeds of the "keep changing your gun syndrome" I could try to deny it but let's face it, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I do like to swap things around regularly, to the point that I feel I should send a crate of wine in to the firearms department for their chrismas party! They certainly work hard for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 I don't really have much experience of "acceptable deer calibre rifles" so I am not going to comment on some of the previous posts, I will only say why I like my .243! I have limited funds and limited gun storage space so I had to settle for a rifle that will cover both deer and fox - Most of the deer around me (On my permissions) are Roe with just a few Fallows so well within the capabilities of the .243! The .243 seemed the best "candidate" for what I wanted it for so that is what I settled for! The recoil is acceptable to a "smaller" person like myself (Yes I have lost weight and am now down to my target weight of just over 11 stone so I'm not a short fat *** anymore) It does the job that I want it for quite admirably, ammunition is reasonably cheap and readilly available. I reload with a friend for foxes (70g Blitzkings) and use Privi Partizans (100g) for deer shooting so it is quite economical to feed and a 1 inch group at 100 yards is reasonably easy at 100 yards with either ammunition and am quite comfortable going out to 250 yards with it if need be. Maybe there are other calibres available that would suit the same purposes silghtly better but I quite like shooting my .243 and would not really want to change it for any other calibre! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) I don't really have much experience of "acceptable deer calibre rifles" so I am not going to comment on some of the previous posts, I will only say why I like my .243! I have limited funds and limited gun storage space so I had to settle for a rifle that will cover both deer and fox - Most of the deer around me (On my permissions) are Roe with just a few Fallows so well within the capabilities of the .243! The .243 seemed the best "candidate" for what I wanted it for so that is what I settled for! The recoil is acceptable to a "smaller" person like myself (Yes I have lost weight and am now down to my target weight of just over 11 stone so I'm not a short fat *** anymore) It does the job that I want it for quite admirably, ammunition is reasonably cheap and readilly available. I reload with a friend for foxes (70g Blitzkings) and use Privi Partizans (100g) for deer shooting so it is quite economical to feed and a 1 inch group at 100 yards is reasonably easy at 100 yards with either ammunition and am quite comfortable going out to 250 yards with it if need be. Maybe there are other calibres available that would suit the same purposes silghtly better but I quite like shooting my .243 and would not really want to change it for any other calibre! Edited August 3, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Frenchie - In all fairness I can't argue with that! For what you do I guess it is pretty well matched to your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 I was aware of a few feral Fallow around your parts and have an idea from were they came, surely these are still of little to no significance? Well put, very valid and perhaps why so many of us are .243" win devotees. Never forget though as a Deer gun alone it also has advantages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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