Doc Holliday Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I was out last night on a permission and decided to give one of the warrens in the lower field a go. Set up the sight for about 25 yards. Cutting a long story short, I shot 3 rabbits (one of them twice) but killed none cleanly. I'm really annoyed that this has happened as I hate to think of anything suffering unnecessarily. I was trying a flat headed Napier Power Target (15.46 grains) so this should have been good enough to do what needed doing at that range. I had the gun (Air Arms S410 Carbine) serviced by Air Arms back in July and the muzzle velocity was set to 11.5lbs. 've gone through everything in my head and cannot for the life of me think why this should be happening. If I can't get it sorted I'm seriously looking at changing it or possible even upgrading to a FAC. Answers on a postcard. Thanks. Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northeastshooter Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 what grouping are you getting with the gun and were are you hitting them it sounds more like shot placement then power to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted September 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 The grouping is tight (I did have a report sheet with it on when it was serviced but can't find it at present). Seeing as the grouping is generally very tight on the older S410's and that I'm generally consistent on shooting only what I know to be at the range I've set the scope to (I'm not confident with holdover and such as yet) and only firing when I'm certain of the position, I'm at a loss as to whether there is something I'm overlooking. Having said that, I'll be the first to admit that operator fault is not entirely blameless. My frustration is knowing the target is in range and not achieving a clean kill. As I said, I'm 99% positive of the placement (behind the eye and under the ear). Any pointers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) When you say you 'set up the sight' did you alter the elevation so that it was correct for 25 yards? Also, had you zeroed the rifle with those pellets? Edited September 16, 2011 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Sometimes, regardless of what people say 12ft lb does that even when your on target. Before anyone starts producing that old BS about 3 ftlb to kill a rabbit, might i ask they back it up with more than "the comics once said so". If you were not on target and impact was in the lower sections of the head you might have ancored it with more power but still placement is key. .22 FAC certainly lands with more authority and from my experiances makes for more humane kills but then again .22 rf is even better the question then starts about the magnum rimfires then the centrefires. Were do you stop with that one? I still hold and use 12 ftlb guns and there is no substitute for good placement, but fac flies flatter, gives less wind and even enlarges those kill zones some (ie neck and frontal chest). I cant think of reasons why not to buy one if you have land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampire Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) The rifle/pellet and range are all ok to kill a rabbit.......if the pellet is placed right, which i reckon is the problem. Edited September 19, 2011 by vampire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I have never heard of flat head pellets been used for anything other than Ratting and paper punching that's at close range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I was trying a flat headed Napier Power Target (15.46 grains) so this should have been good enough to do what needed doing at that range. Doc. Also, had you zeroed the rifle with those pellets? I suspect Billy may be on the money with this comment. Have you tried these pellets through the gun at the range? If so did you get good tight groupings? My S400 shoots really tight with some pellets and more like a scatter gun with others, it may just be that the gun doesn't 'like' that pellet. If struggling maybe try teh AirArms Fields, they are consistent, lethal and I've not heard an AA's owner yet who said his gun didn't like them. If the answer's yes to both questions then is it possible that the scopes been knocked or similar? It does sound very much that it's a placement or accuracy issue and if you're happy that it shoots straight normally, and you're aiming on target, then it can only be that the scopes off or the pellets aren't flying true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 The grouping is tight (I did have a report sheet with it on when it was serviced but can't find it at present). Seeing as the grouping is generally very tight on the older S410's and that I'm generally consistent on shooting only what I know to be at the range I've set the scope to (I'm not confident with holdover and such as yet) and only firing when I'm certain of the position, I'm at a loss as to whether there is something I'm overlooking. Having said that, I'll be the first to admit that operator fault is not entirely blameless. My frustration is knowing the target is in range and not achieving a clean kill. As I said, I'm 99% positive of the placement (behind the eye and under the ear). Any pointers? I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. The gun's grouping may be tight, what about yours? It may sound a bit harsh but if you're "not confident with holdover and such" maybe you need to get out in a field with some targets at 5m intervals until you are. Are you actually hitting the bunnies in the area you have indicated?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyshooter Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) Flathead Pellets are only accurate over short distances, normal dome headed pellets are the best for accurate bunny bashing, placed in the kill zone they do the job, its the same about calibres it does not matter the size of the pellet , its accuracy that counts every time. rgds brian Edited September 16, 2011 by happyshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I'm just wondering what the OPs definition of a clean kill is. Many times I have sprinted over to finish off a bouncing bunny only to find that the rimfire has removed the entire brain and half the skull with it. Young rabbits are the worst for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopper Bopper Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Sorry to say but I had a similar experience last week. On asking a more experienced hunter it was suggested that as most Air Arms rifles are not regulated then the 'power Curve' problem could be at play. I completely re-zeroed my rifle and now sorted. I am no expert in any of this. hope it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 The power curve or what's probably better known as the sweet spot could make a difference. Most PCP's have a working pressure range when they shoot consistently, above or below this they do tend to be a little less accurate, more so when running low rather than high. The S410 seems to be like the S400 in that between about 190bar down to 120bar it should be consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Ignore the power curve issue, you would have not shot enough to encounter the power curve with 3 rabbits unless you have the machine gun variant. The simple fact is your flat head pellets are no use! Take it from one who has the been there, done that, knows what works bit stamped on his head. A normal Diablo or Torpedo dome head is what you want for hunting. Two I recommend are Crosman Premier Ultra Magnums and Prometheus Defiants. Leave the flat head pellets for target punching, or melth them down and turn them into something more useful for hunting, like a lead brick. The dome of the Diablo or Torpedo pellet works better in flight, you do not see many aircraft shaped like a garden shed (the Shorts SC 7 being an exception to the rule), they are all rounded at the front, what makes you think something flying through the air like a brick will have stability in flight? It will not, it will suffer from buffeting and will drift off cours as you have found out. So please, get some Diablo or Torpedo shaped pellets, try those, then worry about the power curve (simple way to avoid that is to top up the tank after 40 shots)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) Thanks for all the replies guys. Taking everything in to account it would make sense that the pellet is the issue. I bought them back in July at the Kent County Show. The guy there told me that you want them to hit like hammers and these are the best ones as they are "pre-lubed" with power lube. I think I got sucked in and fell for the patter lock & stock. I'll revert back to my Air Arms Diabolo Field andsee how we get on. The issue I havewith hold over is that I've had anyone explain to me how to do it properly. Like ll things, if it's explained in detail then we can take it on board and apply it as and when we need to. How I tend to shoot is pick a spot somewhere not too far from rabbit activity (as it happens this night it was a large scrape that had been dug the night before with droppings around so I was confident it would be agood spot. I'll also keep an eye open around where I'm shooting incase there are any other hot spots. Anyway, I'll set everything up in the hope that anything I shoot will be down for count (this includes zeroing in the sight and checking grouping for at least 5 shots against a seed head or somethingthat is easy tosee being hit) and then wait for the little so and so's to come and play. At times though, I do wish I had the capacity to shoot over a greater distance. Plus I'll always make sure that there's plenty of charge in the rifle. Thanks again. Edited September 17, 2011 by Doc Holliday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 My dear Doc, what you need is the ubiquitous Hawke Chairgun or BRC program, free from Hawke. You know the ft lb the air rifle is making, you know your reticle, what you do is punch in the pellet you are using, the power the rifle is making, what you are zeroed to, it displays a nice image showing where on the scope markings the point of impact will be, you will soon get the hang of it. trust me, it makes long range shooting incredibly accurate! Hawke BRC Chairgun Get the info on a card on the most common zoom that you use, get out and with a target box, try what it says, on my Hawke Nite-Eye at x10 on my .177 I have a 5m step from the zero, 35m to 70m! It works on non Hawke scopes as well, just check before you try to take out that rabbit at 60m, but with a little practise you can hit and kill prey at ranges that far exceed what you would normally expect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiDriver Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 My dear Doc, what you need is the ubiquitous Hawke Chairgun or BRC program, free from Hawke. You know the ft lb the air rifle is making, you know your reticle, what you do is punch in the pellet you are using, the power the rifle is making, what you are zeroed to, it displays a nice image showing where on the scope markings the point of impact will be, you will soon get the hang of it. trust me, it makes long range shooting incredibly accurate! Hawke BRC Chairgun Get the info on a card on the most common zoom that you use, get out and with a target box, try what it says, on my Hawke Nite-Eye at x10 on my .177 I have a 5m step from the zero, 35m to 70m! It works on non Hawke scopes as well, just check before you try to take out that rabbit at 60m, but with a little practise you can hit and kill prey at ranges that far exceed what you would normally expect! Can you explain what you mean by 5m step from the zero, 35m to 70m ? I've looked at Chairgun and sadly like most things to do with PC's I don't understand a word of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Ignore the power curve issue, you would have not shot enough to encounter the power curve with 3 rabbits unless you have the machine gun variant. With all due respect, that's not correct. It WILL be an issue if the guns sweet spot is between 190 bar and 120 bar, and the gun is filled to 220 bar. Until enough shots have been fired to bring the pressure down, it will NOT be as accurate as it would be in it's sweet range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 i put this reply in another post: I fill my AirArms S310 to 170 bar, I then use about 50 shots, which drops the pressure to around 150 bar. I then refill to 170. This keeps all the shots in the sweet spot, I can place a pellet just where I want everytime...well the rifle can If you fill an unregulated gun to the highest pressure, take only 20 or 30 shots and then refill before using again, you will probably find that you aren't touching your guns sweet spot! Using a chrono, take shots in groups of 5, then work out the average, do this until the power starts to show a drop. This will give you an easy to read power curve, you can of course just record every shot, but with say 60 figures to read it can get a bit confusing :blink: I store my pellets in biro pen outers, with the lid bunged up with tissue to cover the open end/stop them rattling. I then take 3 tubes of pellets with me, plus a tin full in the car, should I do some rangefinding and zeroing and use them all! Protects the pellets, stops them rattling about and gives you a perfect way to keep count of shots taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I think you have already come to the conclusion that is the pellets and I agree with those thoughts and the others that have pointed out the same, as you say they are branded as a target pellet and a rabbit is not made of paper ! being a target pellet they are likely to be quite light and at the ranges you are talking about and with the flat head they will have lost a lot of their energy and the flat head would not help with penetration ,for me there is only one hunting pellet shape and that is a dome head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick2 Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Hi Doc, this may help you understand Hold Over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome of the Woods Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I always zero with 150bar in the gun, never very far from sweet spot on any AA. If you fill and shoot to 190 with that you will see a pronounced difference on POI. I think it may well be the pellets, but always good to fill to 170 bar to avoid any other problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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