unkown caliber

[jntree]

hi all was given a box of various carts earlya today and found this at the bottom of the box any ideas as to caliber i've placed it next to a garden gun shell so you get a rough idea of size plus its a centerfire!!

[magman]

22 short ?

[Harnser]

Look like an old rook rifle cartridge may-be 9mm ?. Or could be an old pistol round .

 

Harnser .

Edited November 18, 2011 by Harnser

[aldivalloch]

That's a .297/.230 Short. It was used in rook and rabbit rifles and, possibly, in pistols. You'll find information in Colin Greenwood's "The Classic British Rook & Rabbit Rifle".

 

My late mother told me that her grandfather had a very small revolver in this calibre - and before anybody questions that, let me assure you that mam knew her guns!!

[Mike525steel]

That's a .297/.230 Short. It was used in rook and rabbit rifles and, possibly, in pistols. You'll find information in Colin Greenwood's "The Classic British Rook & Rabbit Rifle".

 

My late mother told me that her grandfather had a very small revolver in this calibre - and before anybody questions that, let me assure you that mam knew her guns!!

I saw a revolver like the one you describe years ago at an auction house with my dad in the mid 80's I thought it was a .410 it must have been one of these.

[flazz]

Could be another old pistol calibre 8mm Nambu.

[Magus69]

Aldivalloch is right it's a 297/.230 Morris short. I shoot a Francotte Martini in the long version of this calibre.

Mike...

[ChrisAsh]

Brass cased 410 is my guess, what does the case measure around the bottom just up from the lip and how long 2" or 2.5"

Edited November 19, 2011 by ChrisAsh

[Bazooka Joe]

 

 

 

 

Brass cased 410 is my guess, what does the case measure around the bottom just up from the lip and how long 2" or 2.5"

 

Sure it's 9mm.

[aldivalloch]

What a fascinatingly weird thread this has been!!

 

The OP shows his unidentified item next to a garden gun shell which is clearly a 9mm rimfire and probably made by Fiocchi.

 

He says he has done so to give a rough idea of its size and goes on to tell us the unidentified item is centre-fire.

 

So we're looking at a bottle-necked centrefire cartridge about an inch long. ".22 short?" says magman...... WHAAAT?

 

In comes Harnser suggesting it could be an old rook rifle cartridge. Spot on, if he hadn't suggested 9mm.

 

Then Mike525steel tells me he saw a revolver "like the one you describe" at an auction house and thought it was a .410. Well, apart from the fact that I described my great-grandfather's simply as "a small revolver", which is hardly definitive, a .410 revolver would be anything but. For those of limited imagination, go and set out five or six .410 cartridges as they would appear in the cylinder....

 

And then flazz comes along with the astoundingly random suggestion that it could be an 8mm Nambu. WOW! Where did that one come from? In any case, a thirty-second Google will show that the 8mm Nambu was a RIMLESS cartridge.

 

Magus69 is absolutely correct and tells us that he actually shoots the long version of the cartridge in a Francotte Martini. Responses don't come any more authoritative than that, gentlemen. Nothing more to be said, other than that I'm deeply envious!

 

Or is there??

 

ChrisAsh joins us but clearly hasn't even grasped the original question and suggests the garden gun shell (the OP TOLD us it was a garden gun shell!!) may be a .410.

 

And finally Bazooka Joe provides a very helpful picture that includes the .297/.230 Morris Short Centre-fire, and identifies the garden gun shell as a 9mm.

 

Phew!

 

After reading that lot I feel as though I've had a trip to the Dark Side. And we wonder why police FLO's treat us a bit tentatively! Well, on the basis of the foregoing, just try to imagine some of the daftness they must have to listen to!!!

[Cottonseed]

Aldivalloch is right it's a 297/.230 Morris short. I shoot a Francotte Martini in the long version of this calibre.

Mike...

 

Magus,

 

Just curiosity, but do you use your Francotte Martini for live quarry shooting, or target only. I had a similar rifle once, which had been bored out as a .22 smoothbore.

 

Cottonseed

[njc110381]

What a fascinatingly weird thread this has been!!

 

The OP shows his unidentified item next to a garden gun shell which is clearly a 9mm rimfire and probably made by Fiocchi.

 

He says he has done so to give a rough idea of its size and goes on to tell us the unidentified item is centre-fire.

 

So we're looking at a bottle-necked centrefire cartridge about an inch long. ".22 short?" says magman...... WHAAAT?

 

In comes Harnser suggesting it could be an old rook rifle cartridge. Spot on, if he hadn't suggested 9mm.

 

Then Mike525steel tells me he saw a revolver "like the one you describe" at an auction house and thought it was a .410. Well, apart from the fact that I described my great-grandfather's simply as "a small revolver", which is hardly definitive, a .410 revolver would be anything but. For those of limited imagination, go and set out five or six .410 cartridges as they would appear in the cylinder....

 

And then flazz comes along with the astoundingly random suggestion that it could be an 8mm Nambu. WOW! Where did that one come from? In any case, a thirty-second Google will show that the 8mm Nambu was a RIMLESS cartridge.

 

Magus69 is absolutely correct and tells us that he actually shoots the long version of the cartridge in a Francotte Martini. Responses don't come any more authoritative than that, gentlemen. Nothing more to be said, other than that I'm deeply envious!

 

Or is there??

 

ChrisAsh joins us but clearly hasn't even grasped the original question and suggests the garden gun shell (the OP TOLD us it was a garden gun shell!!) may be a .410.

 

And finally Bazooka Joe provides a very helpful picture that includes the .297/.230 Morris Short Centre-fire, and identifies the garden gun shell as a 9mm.

 

Phew!

 

After reading that lot I feel as though I've had a trip to the Dark Side. And we wonder why police FLO's treat us a bit tentatively! Well, on the basis of the foregoing, just try to imagine some of the daftness they must have to listen to!!!

 

[matone]

What a fascinatingly weird thread this has been!!

 

The OP shows his unidentified item next to a garden gun shell which is clearly a 9mm rimfire and probably made by Fiocchi.

 

He says he has done so to give a rough idea of its size and goes on to tell us the unidentified item is centre-fire.

 

So we're looking at a bottle-necked centrefire cartridge about an inch long. ".22 short?" says magman...... WHAAAT?

 

In comes Harnser suggesting it could be an old rook rifle cartridge. Spot on, if he hadn't suggested 9mm.

 

Then Mike525steel tells me he saw a revolver "like the one you describe" at an auction house and thought it was a .410. Well, apart from the fact that I described my great-grandfather's simply as "a small revolver", which is hardly definitive, a .410 revolver would be anything but. For those of limited imagination, go and set out five or six .410 cartridges as they would appear in the cylinder....

 

And then flazz comes along with the astoundingly random suggestion that it could be an 8mm Nambu. WOW! Where did that one come from? In any case, a thirty-second Google will show that the 8mm Nambu was a RIMLESS cartridge.

 

Magus69 is absolutely correct and tells us that he actually shoots the long version of the cartridge in a Francotte Martini. Responses don't come any more authoritative than that, gentlemen. Nothing more to be said, other than that I'm deeply envious!

 

Or is there??

 

ChrisAsh joins us but clearly hasn't even grasped the original question and suggests the garden gun shell (the OP TOLD us it was a garden gun shell!!) may be a .410.

 

And finally Bazooka Joe provides a very helpful picture that includes the .297/.230 Morris Short Centre-fire, and identifies the garden gun shell as a 9mm.

 

Phew!

 

After reading that lot I feel as though I've had a trip to the Dark Side. And we wonder why police FLO's treat us a bit tentatively! Well, on the basis of the foregoing, just try to imagine some of the daftness they must have to listen to!!!

 

It must be Confused.com !!!!!

[aldivalloch]

God, they're still at it! :o

 

Cottonseed seems to have had a rifle that was BORED OUT to a SMALLER calibre!!

[matone]

The Twilight Zone ????

[jntree]

it seems i have started a bit of confusion hear the bullet in question is the one on the left i will post some more pics with diamiters lenths and widths 2moz, must admit tho it dose amaze me the amount of knowladge on this forum well done lads!

[flazz]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure it's 9mm.

 

The 310 centrefire is that a 310 Sherwood,Cadet or Cattle Killer ?

[Cottonseed]

God, they're still at it! :o

 

Cottonseed seems to have had a rifle that was BORED OUT to a SMALLER calibre!!

 

Oops! More haste--less accuracy. I meant rebored, sleeved.

[aldivalloch]

No confusion, jntree, other than your own. There's only ONE bullet in your photograph. The other item is a shotgun cartridge!

 

The item in question is a .297/.230 Short, initially devised in 1883 as the cartridge for the Morris Aiming Tube, a sub-calibre device intended to be fitted into the barrel of the Martini-Henry service rifle to allow short-range (and cheaper) practice. It was later modified to fit the .303 Lee-Metford and was in use until 1906 at which point .22 rim-fire training rifles were adopted.

 

If you get your calipers out, you'll find that overall cartridge length is 0.965", case length is 0.590", rim diameter is 0.345", case diameter is 0.295", neck diameter is 0.240".

 

The bullet is outside lubricated, 0.240" in diameter, and weighs 37 grains.

 

So I'm a dreadful pedant.

 

Are you now convinced?

 

It's not a mystery any more, so shall we put all this to bed now?

 

flazz - the Sherwood was 0.300", not 0.310", and was to all intents and purposes a lengthened 0.300" Rook cartridge. The one illustrated is a 0.310" Cadet - the 0.310" Humane Killer was a shorter round.

[Bazooka Joe]

The 310 centrefire is that a 310 Sherwood,Cadet or Cattle Killer ?

 

 

I sure it's the Cadet, no doubt Aldi will correct me if I'm wrong

 

Also it's the 300 Sherwood, is it not ?

[casts_by_fly]

No confusion, jntree, other than your own. There's only ONE bullet in your photograph. The other item is a shotgun cartridge!

 

The item in question is a .297/.230 Short, initially devised in 1883 as the cartridge for the Morris Aiming Tube, a sub-calibre device intended to be fitted into the barrel of the Martini-Henry service rifle to allow short-range (and cheaper) practice. It was later modified to fit the .303 Lee-Metford and was in use until 1906 at which point .22 rim-fire training rifles were adopted.

 

If you get your calipers out, you'll find that overall cartridge length is 0.965", case length is 0.590", rim diameter is 0.345", case diameter is 0.295", neck diameter is 0.240".

 

The bullet is outside lubricated, 0.240" in diameter, and weighs 37 grains.

 

So I'm a dreadful pedant.

 

Are you now convinced?

 

It's not a mystery any more, so shall we put all this to bed now?

 

flazz - the Sherwood was 0.300", not 0.310", and was to all intents and purposes a lengthened 0.300" Rook cartridge. The one illustrated is a 0.310" Cadet - the 0.310" Humane Killer was a shorter round.

 

Is that in a book somewhere? I'd be interested in learning more on the 297/230. If the cases are available, it could be a neat wildcat base for a 17 or 20.

 

Thanks, rick

[codling99]

looks like a necked down .50 cal to me,sat besides an old fashion brass 32 6 fibre wad case.my old grandpappy left me one like it years ago to play with :yp:

 

ps. i just get a big urge to wipe that worktop over a bit lol

Edited November 21, 2011 by codling99

[sterling]

looks like a necked down .50 cal to me,sat besides an old fashion brass 32 6 fibre wad case.my old grandpappy left me one like it years ago to play with :yp:

 

ps. i just get a big urge to wipe that worktop over a bit lol

 

I'd say codling has the closest estimate so far. To be fair, you jokers with all that 297/.230 short stuff is pretty funny though!

 

I was professor of guns at some prestigious university somewhere so you know I have the credentials to back this up. The two cartridges you have there are a .17HM2 necked up to .50 and then necked back down to 9mm and the other is a M712 155mm fin stabilized rocket and should be safe to fire from your garden gun if it's conservatively bored out.

[aldivalloch]

Don't poke fun at the garden gun. A lot of people mistakenly think garden guns are pithless and irrelevant. Not so! I have one, a single-shot bolt-action that's about 100 years old. Just as an experiment I removed the pinch of no. 11 shot and replaced it with a single lead ball from my fishing-tackle box.

 

First time out with it I killed a hare at 705 yards.

[flazz]

Don't poke fun at the garden gun. A lot of people mistakenly think garden guns are pithless and irrelevant. Not so! I have one, a single-shot bolt-action that's about 100 years old. Just as an experiment I removed the pinch of no. 11 shot and replaced it with a single lead ball from my fishing-tackle box.

 

First time out with it I killed a hare at 705 yards.

 

 

REALLY ???????? only slightly illegal if it was true

Edited November 21, 2011 by flazz