oxfordfowler Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Applied for my FAC a couple of weeks ago, couldn't see that there would be any issues as i've held a SGC for over 35 years, plenty of land and two upstanding members of the community as referees. Well the cheque was cashed ASAP then two weeks later I recieve a letter from TVP informing me that one of the referees is "unsuitable" and I need to find another - they even included a new application form with high lighted areas for my new referee to complete. As you can imagine I was on the phone to the Firearms Dept PDQ - the lady on the phone explained that she was "not permitted" to inform me which referee was unsuitable or why. As I was unhappy to accept this she advised that I e mail the dept. and ask a senior officer to reply with who & why - as yet no reply. She also admitted that the FEO had not seen my application so the decision must have been made during the basic checks. So now I am going to have two difficult conversations with my referees. One is a County Council member and the other a local arable/dairy farmer (2500+ acres) where I already shoot pigeons (he already holds SGC & an FAC). I would guess that both will be making enquiries to the Firearms Dept about being deemed unsuitable. Now I do have an option for another referee but I don't think I will be going down that road yet. At the moment I am going to see this through and find out what the problem is. Yes I do have an idea what the problem may be and yes I do have more info. than I've given in this post but it's private and concerns other people so not for this post. It is my believe that the firearms have made an error here - we shall see. Damned if I'll give this up. OXF Edited August 21, 2012 by oxfordfowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 just get on with it and get the other referee sorted, you won't win this one in a hurry and they may well still not tell you who or why due to data protection. Some things are worth fighting but in this case it isn't because its not down to anything to do with you, one of your referees has something in their past and thats it done and dusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 A few random thoughts. It’s possible that the councillor has a criminal record buried in his past. Perhaps the farmer has a licence to trade firearms that makes him unsuitable. Maybe the fact you shoot on his land gives him a vested interest in getting you a licence so he’s not suitable. Perhaps the councillor is on some official secrets list which means the police aren’t allowed to do a CRB on him. Maybe one of them has severe depression. It could be a relatively innocent reason why one is unsuitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39TDS Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I don't really see what business it is of yours why they are deemed unsuitable. It would be different if it was you that was said to be unsuitable. You say you already know what the problem is, so either tell us or just let it go (let it go sounds best) You are applying for a FAC, that's all. It isn't a Cook Report episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 You deffo won't win this one. Let it drop and use your backup referee. Much easier for all concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I think one of the issues is that he doesn't know which one of the referees is the "unsuitable" one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 anyone can be a referee for a fac as long as they dont have a dodgy backround,it's different to a shotgun application when the referee has to be a doctor,magistrate etc, andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I think one of the issues is that he doesn't know which one of the referees is the "unsuitable" one? ..but he has said; Yes I do have an idea what the problem may be and yes I do have more info. than I've given in this post but it's private and concerns other people so not for this post So I imagine he has an inkling over which one it is. Just use another referee and get your licence back. It's not you that has flagged up, it is one of them. So surely it's up to that person to investigate why... not you, Columbo It's not really your fight is it?!? Why risk causing more hassle for yourself? On a lighthearted note - never trust a councillor or politician Edited August 21, 2012 by huffhuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Good luck can't see a referee being overly happy if they didn't tell you they probably don't want you to know perhaps they are an undercover copper! The qualifications to act as referee are vague and it varies between forces. If you really want to push it contact the liscencing manager in writing and copy in the guidance paragraph on suitable referees. You would probably need to check with the referees and get them both to write in asking if they are suitable and if not why not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 If in your shoes and I wanted the licence granted before next easter I would re-apply with a new referee.......replacing the one you seem to know is the issue.There are times to swim against the tide but I do not think it will get you too far in this situation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchy trigger Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 it's different to a shotgun application when the referee has to be a doctor,magistrate etc, andrew I think you might be wrong here, on previous shotgun certificate renewals, I have used my neighbours, one a BT employee the other a retired engineer supersport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 While I can imagine you aren't happy and want to win this, I think you'd be far better putting down another referee and getting your application on it's way. There could be a few reasons why one of them is unsuitable, (though it sounds like you've an idea of who and why). I'd have thought that they might be breaking some data protection stuff by telling you who is unsuitable and why - at the very least finding out and persuading them to allow them is going to be hard and unlikely to happen. Just get your application on it's way, the process is long enough without causing delays because of the 'I'm right and your wrong, and I'm going to prove it approach'. Just get your certificate, then if you must take it up with them do so when it's not delaying your shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutchie the white hunter Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Dont want to shoot yourself in the foot ! just go with what they ask for you know it will be better for you in the long run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oxfordfowler Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Thanks for the comments so far on this. Interesting the different slants taken by the posts. I know I'm not "Columbo" and yes I do understand that the problem is with one of the referees. Trouble is that I live in this village as do the referees, both of whom I have known for many years. One of them counter signed my SCG and my passport renewals a couple of years ago - no problem. The other signed off another guys FAC renewal only last month. I have been to see both and both were very surprised and I expect that they will be making representations on there own behalf in the very near furture. I did have an idea where the problem might be however, like I said, in this case the Firearms dept have made a mistake and the referee concerned is hopping mad about it. We shall see what happens. OXF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 If they are concerned they should write to the FLO, if you are happy to wait then see how it pans out. Could the issue be they have signed alot of forms recently? Could something have happened with a previous person they referred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutchie the white hunter Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Keep us posted hope all goes well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 don't get involved just get another one on the way and let the person in question worry about the false information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I think you might be wrong here, on previous shotgun certificate renewals, I have used my neighbours, one a BT employee the other a retired engineer supersport http://www.westmercia.police.uk/application-forms/who-can-be-a-countersignatory.html Who Can be a Countersignatory? Below is a list of people who are considered acceptable to act as countersignatories. The list, though comprehensive, is not exhaustive: Member of Parliament (including retired) Justice of the Peace (including retired) Minister of Religion Doctor / nurse Lawyer / solicitor (including retired Bank officer / manager (including retired) Officer in Her Majesty's Service - except serving police officers and police staff Legal executive Stockbroker Postmaster / postmistress (including retired) Fire official Customs officer (Executive Officer and above) Building society manager Councillor Dentist (including retired) Optician Civil servant (Executive Officer and above) Local government officer Accountant Civil engineer (qualified) Surveyor Architect Head teacher / teacher (including retired) Chiropodist Farmer (landowner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oxfordfowler Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Well would you believe it :hmm: Didn't take long for the Firearms Dept to change thier minds. Just had an e mail from one of the senior officers - "Both of my referees will now be accepted" the firearms officer will be contacting me to continue with the application :good: Result OXF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Congrats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrover Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I think you might be wrong here, on previous shotgun certificate renewals, I have used my neighbours, one a BT employee the other a retired engineer supersport agree, i had a fellow sgc holder do mine, for sgc and fac Edited August 21, 2012 by landrover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I think you might be wrong here, on previous shotgun certificate renewals, I have used my neighbours, one a BT employee the other a retired engineer supersport http://www.westmerci...rsignatory.html Who Can be a Countersignatory? Below is a list of people who are considered acceptable to act as countersignatories. The list, though comprehensive, is not exhaustive: Member of Parliament (including retired) Justice of the Peace (including retired) Minister of Religion Doctor / nurse Lawyer / solicitor (including retired Bank officer / manager (including retired) Officer in Her Majesty's Service - except serving police officers and police staff Legal executive Stockbroker Postmaster / postmistress (including retired) Fire official Customs officer (Executive Officer and above) Building society manager Councillor Dentist (including retired) Optician Civil servant (Executive Officer and above) Local government officer Accountant Civil engineer (qualified) Surveyor Architect Head teacher / teacher (including retired) Chiropodist Farmer (landowner) The Home office guidance for FAC referees is different: http://www.homeoffic...pdf?view=Binary Page 50 (pdf) Chapter 10 Referees 10.7 A referee may be of any background or occupation. A referee must be of good character, whom the police may trust to give honest replies to the questions contained on the referee form (the referee is not required to guarantee the applicant’s good behaviour). 10.8 Members of the applicant’s family may not act as referees. In the absence of a Court ruling, family is taken to mean the following: mother; father; son; daughter; sister; brother; aunt; uncle; grand parent and mother/father/sister/brother in law. Cousins are not regarded as immediate family but cohabiting partners should be considered as “family” for these purposes and not be accepted. Serving police officers, police civilian employees and registered firearms dealers (but see paragraph 10.9) may not act as referees. 10.9 If the chief officer of police is satisfied under section 44 of the 1997 Act that the application is for the renewal of a firearm certificate in relation to a rifle or muzzleloading pistol for use only for target shooting, one of the referees must be an official of the approved rifle or muzzleloading pistol club specified in the application. In these circumstances, the referee may be a registered firearms dealer and need not have known the applicant personally for at least two years. The other referee must satisfy the requirements of paragraph 10.6( B) above and must not be a member of any target-shooting club. 10.10 The referees are required to verify that the information given in questions 1 to 16 of form 101 is correct. The applicant should complete all questions before asking the referees to verify the information concerned. The referees must endorse one of the photographs in the manner given in the notes to Part D on page 4 of the application form and thereafter sign the endorsement. 10.11 The police should provide two copies of the Reference Form (form 125) and the applicant should give one to each of their referees, after having completed Part A. The form includes instructions as to how the referees should complete the form, and the criteria for the referees when considering the applicant’s fitness to possess firearms. The completed form 125 must be sent directly by the referee to police headquarters, firearms licensing department. The full postal address of the firearms licensing department should be included with the referee form, although as a matter of best practice forces may want to provide a pre-addressed envelope with the form. Edited August 21, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 HDAV Do not confuse countersignatory with referee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 HDAV Do not confuse countersignatory with referee. I don't think I am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) well done get the cert Edited August 21, 2012 by storme37 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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