mr williamson Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 When this came up before I think it seemed that you only have to declare a conviction, and that a caution is not a conviction. However, while it may not be a requirement to declare a caution, I'd have thought it better to do so as the firearms dept should know about it, and think your hiding something by not telling them. It's certainly not a desirable thing to have. a caution is a conviction its an admission of guilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 What you are all forgetting is as in the eyes of the police we are all potential armed criminals, we are not subject to the same laws as every other citizen in this country, special secret inteligence is kept on every licence holder, we may go through the motion of filling in a renewal form for public consumption, but in the real world that counts for little, if there is enough cumalitive evidence to support refusal they will refuse the licence, then its a case of making application to the courts......It doesn't just rely on convictions. I'm sure there are plenty of grey areas on the application form to reccomend refusal....When my licence was revoked i had to go before a meeting with an inspector and a licencing Officer to guage if i was fit to be given my guns back. ......It wasn't a forgone conclusion. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 What you are all forgetting is as in the eyes of the police we are all potential armed criminals, we are not subject to the same laws as every other citizen in this country, special secret inteligence is kept on every licence holder, we may go through the motion of filling in a renewal form for public consumption, but in the real world that counts for little, if there is enough cumalitive evidence to support refusal they will refuse the licence, then its a case of making application to the courts......It doesn't just rely on convictions. I'm sure there are plenty of grey areas on the application form to reccomend refusal....When my licence was revoked i had to go before a meeting with an inspector and a licencing Officer to guage if i was fit to be given my guns back. ......It wasn't a forgone conclusion. Dennis I actually think this is how it should be and to the benefit of all law abiding license holders. Yes there needs to be a little intelligence used but in your case Dennis you obviously have a history with a bit of violence and police trouble thrown in. Would that ring alarm bells to your FEO it certainly should, You simply have to keep yourself clean with regard to the police to hold firearms and have a decent explanation for any incidents in the past, FEO's seem pretty good at one off incidents but make a habit of it and then they should revoke certs. As for a caution it is a case of you admitting committing an offence and yes it is recommended to put it on the form rather than look like you are hiding information. They will know anyway so it just looks open and up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Cautions and convictions are very different things. If you don't agree then I ask you would you rather be cautioned or convicted of an ABH or Theft. Guilty at court means you can go to prison for both. Caution means you can go straight home and continue with your life. Some professional bodies treat them with the same degree of seriousness. An example would be the general medical council. The reason for this is that their members need to be whiter than white and they will not tolerate any form of dishonesty or corruption. A chap I dealt with received a criminal caution for fraud but was then struck off for 12 months and received a big fine and restrictions on his future career. Moral of the story........don't lie to the cops even if you have a better education and earn more money. We are not as thick as we look! Insurance companies always ask if you have any convictions or cautions. If they were the same thing they would just ask about convictions. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I take it you are commenting in a professional capacity. I am of the opinion that it need not be declared but I also believe it would be considered behind the scenes regardless so its a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Sprackles if your asking me then the answer is no I'm not commenting in a professional capacity as I'm off duty but I do know what I'm on about most of the time. Generally if I don't know what I'm on about I won't comment unlike many on here. In relation to the debate on here if the form asks for convictions then I would only put convictions and not cautions. When they do the pnc check it will show any cautions, convictions or reprimands you have received and any arrests that have not led to a conviction and what the disposal was at court. If on the feo visit you are asked about cautions then tell them. They will know anyway. They will also likley know if you have phoned the police to report a crime, been a victim of crime, witnessed a crime, if anything has happened at your home address of if any of the above has happened to close family members who live with you. They will also know if there is any intelligence that your up to no good drug dealing, ringing cars or associating with people that do or anything like that. In summary answer what your asked honestly and openly and you can't go far wrong and if you happen to have the kettle on and cakes at the ready when the feo arrives than all the better. Dirty Harry (off duty cop) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 And that, I feel, puts the matter to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 There's no doubting a caution is different to a conviction but I still maintain that best practice would be to pop it down in the box. They know so there is nothing to be gained by ripping the question to bits. With regard to not accepting cautions My experience is that they are all too frequently offered as a way of making the problem go away and as such people admit things they haven't done to go home and get to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 a caution is a conviction its an admission of guilt No, while it is an admission of guilt, it's not a conviction. You are wrong - and you seem to be the only one who can't see they're different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Dirty Harry, thanks. I suppose given the way everyone is declaring their interpretation of a question, I suppose i should have phrased mine as follows....."Are you quoting from knowledge gleaned in a professional capacity" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakerboy Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Have you rescued your guns yet from the Police station? The sticky labels do a lot of damage/make an awful mess.(I have taken in guns for others, mine have never been taken) Edited August 31, 2012 by bakerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 well all my mates who is sgc holders have no space due to them having 2 to 3 gun storage and as i was looking after 4 other guns due to a firend braken up with is wife feo said it would be a wise idea for a little while well into to 3r of october and my 3 guns that makes 7 guns have been takeb from me and cambs police have a rule anymore than 8 guns you have to have a alarm fitted thats wired to the police have email the feo and her reply was that its good to hear i let her know whats happen even tho she was aware of the matter when she gets all the info she will come and have a little chat with me just want my guns to be looked after and not put into the lost/coviscated property room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Had you already notified the Police that you were looking after another four guns (if over 72 hours), for your friend? If not, your slim chance looks slimmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 My thoughts exactly!! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 yes the feo sign them over to me and she personaly put them on my sgc that where 4 weeks ago she done that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Seems to me that everyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong. I'll call it a draw at this stage. Seems to me like you are desperately trying to save face in a situation where you know you are wrong. J. a caution is a conviction its an admission of guilt Utter rubbish. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Cautions and convictions are very different things. If you don't agree then I ask you would you rather be cautioned or convicted of an ABH or Theft. Guilty at court means you can go to prison for both. Caution means you can go straight home and continue with your life. Some professional bodies treat them with the same degree of seriousness. An example would be the general medical council. The reason for this is that their members need to be whiter than white and they will not tolerate any form of dishonesty or corruption. A chap I dealt with received a criminal caution for fraud but was then struck off for 12 months and received a big fine and restrictions on his future career. Moral of the story........don't lie to the cops even if you have a better education and earn more money. We are not as thick as we look! Insurance companies always ask if you have any convictions or cautions. If they were the same thing they would just ask about convictions. Harry Very true. There is a massive, massive difference between the two. A conviction is an independent declaration of your guilt by another party or body. A caution...well...isn't. It is an entirely different concept in law. To reiterate; the form asks you to declare convictions. A caution is not a conviction. It's like saying that an apple tree is the same as a a pear tree. If DEFRA asked you whether you had an apple tree (for whatever reason) then would you expect them to penalise you if you failed to tell them that you had a pear tree? Of course you wouldn't because they haven't asked you whether you owned one. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I take it you are commenting in a professional capacity. I am of the opinion that it need not be declared but I also believe it would be considered behind the scenes regardless so its a moot point. Yes, the caution would be considered as regards your overall suitabilty to have a cert. The fact that you did not declare it would not as you have never been asked to declare it. Anyone ho was refused on the ground that they didn't declare a caution would walk an appeal and would almost certainly get costs and probably damages. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Yes, the caution would be considered as regards your overall suitabilty to have a cert. The fact that you did not declare it would not as you have never been asked to declare it. Anyone ho was refused on the ground that they didn't declare a caution would walk an appeal and would almost certainly get costs and probably damages. J. I'm 100% confident damages would not be awarded as there would be no mechanism to do so. You also forget that in law interpretation isn't always literal. Your bullish confidence may be appropriate for whatever you do but when you or your employers become financially liable for legal you give advice it pays to look at all angles and advise accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Seems to me like you are desperately trying to save face in a situation where you know you are wrong. J. I'm still waiting for the evidence I asked for. If I'm trying to save face then you're avoiding the question. Now how about stopping this pi55ing contest. You're obviously right and I'm not wasting any more time. BTW, are you oriental? Us Euro's don't do saving face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 I'm 100% confident damages would not be awarded as there would be no mechanism to do so. I see no reason in law as to why someone who has had proceedings brought against them for a 'crime' which does not exist would not be entitled to bring a claim for the damage it has caused to him. You also forget that in law interpretation isn't always literal. Your bullish confidence may be appropriate for whatever you do but when you or your employers become financially liable for legal you give advice it pays to look at all angles and advise accordingly. I have looked at from each point of view and I have concluded that if a form asks you to declare a thing and there is a penalty for not doing so then you cannot be held liable for not declaring something you were never asked to. No one has provided a properly legally resoned argument as to why you can be prosecuted for not declaring a caution. J. I'm still waiting for the evidence I asked for. Evidence of what? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 And that, I feel, puts the matter to bed. No, JL hasn't had the last word after everyone else gives up talking minor details to the wall yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullet1747 Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Why did they arrest you for getting your head caved in with a brick ,after being dragged out of a car ,as for the comments of don't except a caution if I was innocent they would not get me to admit owt ,hope it works out for you and the pickey gets wot he/them deserve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) Anyone ho was refused on the ground that they didn't declare a caution would walk an appeal and would almost certainly get costs and probably damages. I see no reason in law as to why someone who has had proceedings brought against them for a 'crime' which does not exist would not be entitled to bring a claim for the damage it has caused to him. Not sure how that works. :hmm: Someone who has been refused a SGC and appeals - just where are the "proceedings which have been brought against them? There are none. Mungler might be your man here, but if someone could get damages under these circumstances, I will plait sawdust. Edited September 1, 2012 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Not sure how that works. :hmm: Someone who has been refused a SGC and appeals - just where are the "proceedings which have been brought against them? There are none. Mungler might be your man here, but if someone could get damages under these circumstances, I will plait sawdust. I am confident he is wrong. There would be no proceedings for a crime, just potentially a certificate refusal and there would be no mechanism for damages if that refusal were then overturned at a later date. Costs are always a different matter. There was never any suggestion that you would be prosecuted not for doing so, but even so there is no compensation mechanism for prosecution where you are found to be not guilty beyond costs etc. I'm confident he doesn't work in the legal services industry because looking at all angles doesn't just involve re-reading the wording, it means thinking 'could a potential problem arise from a particular course of action' if the answer is yes the best course to advise is one that is equally simple but couldn't conceivably cause a problem unless there is a significant benefit to be gained from taking the route where there is potentially a problem. The fact there is a debate shows it isn't the best course of action. As there hasn't been a ruling on the precise meaning of the wording, my view remains unchanged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.