SPARKIE Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 ruger have now introduced a .17hornet its on there website and looks sweet............that will slow savage sales down.....http://ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine7717/models.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimmie Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Yeah but it will be twice the price as the savage !! SRP is over $900 so god only nos how much It will :( BUT it will be the best quality rifle out there !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 What I can't understand is if you look at Hornady V Max bullets, they do 25gn in 0.172" calibre with a BC of 0.230 and a 32 in 0.204 with 0.210. Yet move up to 0.224" and you get a 35 gn house brick. If they were to do a 32 gn in 0.224" with a BC of 0.230 which a Hornet could throw out at 3100 ft/sec giving, with a 150 yard (sight height 2") zero, a PBR of 1" between 40 and 165 yards and being fox capable out to a full 200 yards, who, then, would bother with the 17? Surely, this is not beyond the wit of man! I can understand the wish/need for a 17 Stateside with all their millions of various breeds of furry little critters. I also believe that you should be able to buy what you damned well please without criticism on the grounds that a little of what you fancy......But I can't help but feel that the 22 and the bullet detailed would do the job over here without the need of any another calibre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 i am not too obsesive about BC cross calibre though it does appear the .17 hornet is set up for the wrong bullet for us Brits. If i had to have something small yet faster than the .22 Hornet (which i dont) i should be looking for a nice used .222. A ruger 77 the best quality? not in my book matey, no way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) i am not too obsesive about BC cross calibre though it does appear the .17 hornet is set up for the wrong bullet for us Brits. If i had to have something small yet faster than the .22 Hornet (which i dont) i should be looking for a nice used .222. A ruger 77 the best quality? not in my book matey, no way! Think you've missed the point. Many are looking at the 17 Hornet because it's flat shooting and because of personal preference. Am sorry, called away. Yep, the 17 has 0.3" either way on the 22 but the 22 has just 15 ft/lbs short of 100 better than the 17 at 200 yards. If you can handle/tolerate the 0.3" AND if someone made it, I think this would go well with the 22 Hornet. Edited October 16, 2012 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Think you've missed the point. Many are looking at the 17 Hornet because it's flat shooting and because of personal preference. Am sorry, called away. Yep, the 17 has 0.3" either way on the 22 but the 22 has just 15 ft/lbs short of 100 better than the 17 at 200 yards. If you can handle/tolerate the 0.3" AND if someone made it, I think this would go well with the 22 Hornet. nope, i didn't miss the point small calibre light recoiling flatter than its .22 older brother. I sure as heck dont understand your last paragraph though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 17 Hornet is NOT fox capable at 200 yards. What it is with a 20gr bullet is ideal for crows and maggies. Set up 10mm high at 100 yards it is still on at 160 yards (ish). The problem with all bullets is demand, there have been calls across the world for a 20 cal 50 grain plastic tip for 10 years plus but nothing has happened. Chances of an ultra light 22 bullet is non existent I would say. Now shoot a 20 Vartarg and it will throw a 20 cal 32 grainer out at 3400 or so. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 nope, i didn't miss the point small calibre light recoiling flatter than its .22 older brother. I sure as heck dont understand your last paragraph though If the shooter could put up with the 1" PBR instead of the 0.4" (an improvement of 0.3" either side of null) between 65 and 160 yards that the 17 gives and which in reality is neither here nor there, then the need for a younger brother would not exist. Hope that's easier for you to grasp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 17 Hornet is NOT fox capable at 200 yards. What it is with a 20gr bullet is ideal for crows and maggies. Set up 10mm high at 100 yards it is still on at 160 yards (ish). The problem with all bullets is demand, there have been calls across the world for a 20 cal 50 grain plastic tip for 10 years plus but nothing has happened. Chances of an ultra light 22 bullet is non existent I would say. Now shoot a 20 Vartarg and it will throw a 20 cal 32 grainer out at 3400 or so. A Totally agree. I think if anybody was going to produce a 'high performance' light 22 bullet, they'd have done it by now. Although I'm happy and prefer to throw 50 gns about for fox, I can see that anyone who likes a lighter faster round working within the capability of the 22 Hornet would find it advantageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPARKIE Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 i dont think tho people who reload this round will reload with a 20g bullet theres a few different weight of bullets to add to the mix this is far to close a round to the .17rem fireball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 sparkie, you're twice wrong in your post. (1) the ideal bullet for the hornet is the 20 gr v-max. The little hornet caes doesn't have the capacity to push 30's at all (they are very slow) and 25's don't have a benefit over the 20's. The 17 hornet's primary benefit is a light, fast bullet that does maximum damage with small penetration on small to medium targets. When you start putting the heavier bullets in, you loose the fast aspect, which then drops the maximum damage aspect. The 25gr v-max is a long bullet to put into the hornet case. The 25 gr HP fits better, but isn't nearly as explosive in the hornet. I've shot all three of the named bullets and the 20 really shines. (2) It is nowhere near close to the fireball in performance. the hornet will push a 20 gr at 3600. the fireball will push a 25 gr at 4000. The fireball takes about 75% more powder in doing so. It is a LOT louder and has a lot more 'bark' to moderate. The hornet is a little peach of a round. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) 17 Hornet is NOT fox capable at 200 yards. What it is with a 20gr bullet is ideal for crows and maggies. Set up 10mm high at 100 yards it is still on at 160 yards (ish). The problem with all bullets is demand, there have been calls across the world for a 20 cal 50 grain plastic tip for 10 years plus but nothing has happened. Chances of an ultra light 22 bullet is non existent I would say. Now shoot a 20 Vartarg and it will throw a 20 cal 32 grainer out at 3400 or so. A Ok, help me out with that one, WHY not, the energy/accuracy/what? Edited October 17, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok, help me out with that one, WHY, not the energy/accuracy/what? I was having a hard time with that too!! A 20 gr. at 3600 will dispatch a fox neatly at 250, I have shot dozens of Coyotes with 25s at 3900 and they kill like lightening at 300yds.. Coyotes are double the size of a fox minimum and tough as nails. They usually expire without a quiver when hit with that 25 hp. I don't favor the vmax for Coyotes as it is too fragile and will come apart on the skin at high velocity. Fox are much thinner skinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I've just bought a Ruger .204, which throws a "stated" 40 grain V-Max at 3900 fps. When zeroed at 0.7" high at 100 yards would be bang on at 200 yards. Reading all the posts on this thread, doesn't that make it an allround better calibre than a .17 Hornet? I'm not stating it is, it's more of a question. And if it isn't better, why isn't it? Cheers Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 its noisier and uses more powder and has a massive amount more energy. Which is good if you need a lot more energy but not if you don't, realistically this is something for 200 yard corvids that can handle foxes to a reasonable range. Its not a bunny gun and its not a fox gun its somewhere in the middle, may suit people who don't shoot many of either as a walk about gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Physics has to raise it's ugly head again and supercedes all notions of what seems to be right. According to Hornady Ballistic calculator the .17 Vmax at 3600 yields 285# energy at 200yds and 193 at 300 yds. It is pure speculation on my part but I am thinking 200# of energy applied to the chest of a fox should suffice with a bullet as frangable as a Vmax. +2" @100, -3" at 300yds should be point blank to 300yds. Phil we both know the larger diameter the bullet the longer and heavier it must be in order to maintain a high BC. Hornady has a 53 Vmax which would be my choice IF I had a 12 or faster twist--BC of .290 or so they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I've just bought a Ruger .204, which throws a "stated" 40 grain V-Max at 3900 fps. When zeroed at 0.7" high at 100 yards would be bang on at 200 yards. Reading all the posts on this thread, doesn't that make it an allround better calibre than a .17 Hornet? I'm not stating it is, it's more of a question. And if it isn't better, why isn't it? Cheers Jamie If you took the ME of your 204 and put it in a 223 you would possibly have a 55gn bullet (at 3325 ft/sec) delivering the energy that your 204 does at 400 yards at 500+ with a bigger wound path and a higher sectional density giving superior penetration. All of this is theoretical of course. Does this make the 223 better than the 204? No, simply different, just as the 17 is different to the 204. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Physics has to raise it's ugly head again and supercedes all notions of what seems to be right. According to Hornady Ballistic calculator the .17 Vmax at 3600 yields 285# energy at 200yds and 193 at 300 yds. It is pure speculation on my part but I am thinking 200# of energy applied to the chest of a fox should suffice with a bullet as frangable as a Vmax. +2" @100, -3" at 300yds should be point blank to 300yds. Phil we both know the larger diameter the bullet the longer and heavier it must be in order to maintain a high BC. Hornady has a 53 Vmax which would be my choice IF I had a 12 or faster twist--BC of .290 or so they say. What he said. The 17 hornet at 200 yards has as much energy as the HMR does at the muzzle and with a heavier bullet to boot. Would you shoot a fox in the chest with a HMR at 10'? I certainly would. thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok, i have issues with the lighter .17 bullets- found them so unpredictable fragmenting too fast at high impact speeds and practically non at all at slower speeds. in the middle it was great, problem was not everything i shot was the perfect range. I admit this reffers to the HMR and speeds will be well up on that one, surely this exasperates the over fragmentation issue? while solving the non/ little expanding one? All said and done like the .22 variant it will be a great gun to moderate and frugal with powder, IF the cases last (i have doubt on this ) and IF it proves a usefull humane tool on foxes through a reasonable range envelope i will become a lot more interested. There is quite a few IF's there mind and time will tell. I realy dont have an issue doing say 200yds fox with the older brother though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Physics has to raise it's ugly head again and supercedes all notions of what seems to be right. According to Hornady Ballistic calculator the .17 Vmax at 3600 yields 285# energy at 200yds and 193 at 300 yds. It is pure speculation on my part but I am thinking 200# of energy applied to the chest of a fox should suffice with a bullet as frangable as a Vmax. +2" @100, -3" at 300yds should be point blank to 300yds. Phil we both know the larger diameter the bullet the longer and heavier it must be in order to maintain a high BC. Hornady has a 53 Vmax which would be my choice IF I had a 12 or faster twist--BC of .290 or so they say. Think I'm going to have to disagree and go with Alycidon. Problem is, I don't really know why and am hoping that he comes back in response to Dekers' request for help in understanding. Physics is all well and good but sometimes, just sometimes what seems to be right actually is right - If it looks right, it flies right. What would happen down range if this small,light, thin skinned and extremely frangible bullet were to strike the skeleton? The physics is good only if the matter/figures/whatever are appropriate and I can't help but feel that in this case they're not and in response to my own quesion I fear the answer could well be a nastily wounded three legged fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok, i have issues with the lighter .17 bullets- found them so unpredictable fragmenting too fast at high impact speeds and practically non at all at slower speeds. in the middle it was great, problem was not everything i shot was the perfect range. I admit this reffers to the HMR and speeds will be well up on that one, surely this exasperates the over fragmentation issue? while solving the non/ little expanding one? All said and done like the .22 variant it will be a great gun to moderate and frugal with powder, IF the cases last (i have doubt on this ) and IF it proves a usefull humane tool on foxes through a reasonable range envelope i will become a lot more interested. There is quite a few IF's there mind and time will tell. I realy dont have an issue doing say 200yds fox with the older brother though Got notification of this while I was typing. Having just had a problem with one of my Hornets ( the one with the gentle load), from what I've just discovered, the possible short case life (which only affects reloaders anyway) may well be avoidable. I'd never heard of these until I started looking into the problem/solution of case ( this pains me!) 'growth' and extraction problems. With a bit of luck, Redding may add 17 Hornet to their existing range of body dies. They're worth a read up on by anyone, if like me, you've never heard of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I have loaded some of my hornet cases 6 times now with no splits, separations, etc. All chamber just fine in a break barrel gun with no camming action from a bolt. I have not trimmed or annealed them. Not sure what else i could ask of the 'thin, lightweight, fragile brass". I do not know how long they will last, but they are going fine. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 A misplaced shot is a misplaced shot no matter the caliber. A poor hit with a .223 or a Swift for that matter will cause a 3 legged Fox just the same. There needs always to be a yardstick to measure by and that would be energy delivered in this instance. I don't play games with the animals I hunt and err on the side of caution. I am willing to bet that none of those doubting the little .17 centerfires have ANY experience with the caliber----rather parroting what they read/heard. i shoot them and know exactly what they are capable of. Case life should be good with the .17 Hornet as well, I have .17 Rem cases that have been annealed and reloaded a dozen times and that is a much hotter round. I have shot Fox with a 20 vmax and it does the job quite well. Occasionally we are blinded by our own bias, 22 cals are fine but other tools work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz2202 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I dont care too much about all the doubters, I cant wait for my cert to drop back through the door with .17 hornet on it. I just hope that it is like my HMR but on steroids !!! I have 223 , 22lr , hmr and 22 hornet. The 17 hornet, I think and hope will sit some where nicely between them all and may become my gun of choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I dont care too much about all the doubters, I cant wait for my cert to drop back through the door with .17 hornet on it. I just hope that it is like my HMR but on steroids !!! I have 223 , 22lr , hmr and 22 hornet. The 17 hornet, I think and hope will sit some where nicely between them all and may become my gun of choice It is exactly a HMR on steriods. A little more bullet weight, a lot more speed. Still super fun. thanks, rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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