Another idiot with a gun!

[JonathanL]

What has really happened here is we are another step closer to having tighter controls foisted upon us by the establishment, i don't know all the facts but it appears that this ground had no real control over those that shoot at it. Part of the E petition i proposed was that the shooting bodies have a greater say it the management of this sport, an idiot with a pump action shotgun should only be allowed on the ground under strict controls, its not a clay shooting weapon. How the hell was he allowed a loaded shotgun facing other shooters, was the ground a registered ground under guidance form one of the shooting bodies, was the owner a member of one of the organisation, was it registered ? My E Petition was to try to stop the cowboy element in this sport ruining it for everyone. shooters should support it, our National Bodies should have some measure of control over the whole sport.....Has someone got to die first ? before we tackle it.

 

Dennis

 

This is a much larger discussion of its own right. However.....no weapons are ever used for clay shooting.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

While I agree its an arbitrary number I fail to see how it is any way useful to the point of fact regardless of the amount he had drunk he should not have been able to injure 3 people while at a clay shoot! Whilst observing safe gun handling.!!!

 

It's a useful figure because how else do you get the point across?

 

To be honest, I think it's a bit decpetive because people don't really appreciate what a reading of three times the limit actually equates to. In the real world it's a huge amount of drink. When the police nick someone for drink driving the procedure is that they get breath tested at the scene. If they blow over the limit then they wait 20 minutes and test them again in case they have only just had a drink and are registering alcohol that is in their throat rather than from their lungs.

 

If the second test is over the limit then they are taken to a police station and tested again on a more accurate machine. Two tests are done and the lower reading is used at court. It could be an hour or more before the tests at the station which means you may not have had a drink for a couple of hours. If you are three times over the limit at that point you have consumed a very large amount of alcohol.

 

Buy a breathalyser on Ebay and do some tests. I did a few years back - purely in the name of science, you understand. You can drink a pint of normal strength beer at a rate of a pint every hour and never get near the limit. It isn't easy to get, and to stay, at twice the driving limit for long. Being three times over the limit several hours after drinking means that you have had a huge amount of drink. People would smell that.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

You should be able to use whatever gun you want to shoot clays, after all it is a free country.

 

Agreed, with the caveat that clay shoots are private affairs and can ban what they want. They shouldn't though.

 

If nobody had noticed he was drunk or did and didn't care then there is something seriously wrong.

 

Totally agreed! I can accept (just) that no one may have noticed given that it was outside. However, it would seem unlikely. A clay shoot is a social gathering and people naturally interact with one another, that is the whole point of it. If anyone had smelled him stinking of drink and did nothing then they shouldn't be shooters any more.

 

J.

[robbiep]

Interesting, a number of people here saying that it must have been / should have been obvious. Having worked with someone who we later found was an alcoholic, and drinking very large quantities, the rest of us were all astonished at how well he had hidden it, and none of us noticed for 3 years. This being in a professional post as well.

Someone that can consume that amount of drink and not be absolutely obviously blotto the following morning has built up a huge tolerance level to alcohol, and is probably a hardened alcoholic

[Will Poon]

Just been reading most of this topic , there's no rule to say a pump action shotgun is not a clay breaking gun, it's how you handle the weapon in whatever discipline your shooting

[bedwards1966]

What has really happened here is we are another step closer to having tighter controls foisted upon us by the establishment, i don't know all the facts but it appears that this ground had no real control over those that shoot at it. Part of the E petition i proposed was that the shooting bodies have a greater say it the management of this sport, an idiot with a pump action shotgun should only be allowed on the ground under strict controls, its not a clay shooting weapon. How the hell was he allowed a loaded shotgun facing other shooters, was the ground a registered ground under guidance form one of the shooting bodies, was the owner a member of one of the organisation, was it registered ? My E Petition was to try to stop the cowboy element in this sport ruining it for everyone. shooters should support it, our National Bodies should have some measure of control over the whole sport.....Has someone got to die first ? before we tackle it.

 

Dennis

 

I very much doubt that anyone is ever allowed to have a loaded shotgun pointed at someone at a clay ground. He's broken the rules because he is a drunken moron. No rule can stop that - though it's not impossible that the layout of the shooting ground may have some room for improvements.

 

Please don't refer to any kind of firearm as a weapon. They aren't, they are only a weapon when used as a weapon - shooting clays is quite different.

 

I get the impression that you don't think pump action guns should be allowed for shooting clays - a bit ironic as your going on about how the establishment will be a step closer to tightening controls, as you seem to want to ban pumps!

 

They are no more dangerous than any other kind of firearm, and I shoot rather well with mine. They're perfectly suitable.

 

I fail to see how the shooting organisations could have have any effect on this. It may be that someone at the ground noticed he stank of alcohol, but didn't dare say anything, or it may be that nobody noticed. What would the shooting organisations having a closer link with management have to do with any of this?

[denniswebb]

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition, a working party is in hand to bring in better and safer controls in the licence applications and management of the sport, i'm sure David from BASC can expand, but its to bring us in line with Countries like Germany, where you have to sit an exam and take lessons before granting a gun licence. Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance.......Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting, auto's are bad enough, i forget how many discharges i have seen and jamb ups, and see the shooter turn round assuring everyone that the gun is clear only to see a cartridge pop out.

 

Dennis

[Gordon R]

Dennis - do you get up each morning with the sole intent of speaking drivel. If you don't, it comes remarkably easily to you.

 

Why do you, and you alone, decide pumps have no place in clay shooting. You also have a dig at autos. Why not have a pop about SBSs or Over and Unders? It would be just as illogical.

 

Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance..

 

Shame I wasn't there to witness this remarkable event. :no: :no:

 

 

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition,

 

A classic - one of your many. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited November 25, 2012 by Gordon R

[TopDown]

It's a useful figure because how else do you get the point across?

 

To be honest, I think it's a bit decpetive because people don't really appreciate what a reading of three times the limit actually equates to. In the real world it's a huge amount of drink. When the police nick someone for drink driving the procedure is that they get breath tested at the scene. If they blow over the limit then they wait 20 minutes and test them again in case they have only just had a drink and are registering alcohol that is in their throat rather than from their lungs.

 

If the second test is over the limit then they are taken to a police station and tested again on a more accurate machine. Two tests are done and the lower reading is used at court. It could be an hour or more before the tests at the station which means you may not have had a drink for a couple of hours. If you are three times over the limit at that point you have consumed a very large amount of alcohol.

 

Buy a breathalyser on Ebay and do some tests. I did a few years back - purely in the name of science, you understand. You can drink a pint of normal strength beer at a rate of a pint every hour and never get near the limit. It isn't easy to get, and to stay, at twice the driving limit for long. Being three times over the limit several hours after drinking means that you have had a huge amount of drink. People would smell that.

 

J.

 

I normally agree with you but you are a bit off on this I am afraid. 3 x Drink Drive limit is quite a lot of beer but not difficult to achieve with spirits, wine etc. Your description of the roadside stop is not accurate either. I would be disappointed if it's not inside 1 hour from stop to evidential test. This does differ from force to force though.

 

Alcohol level achieved, effects and reduction in the level are individual. There is not much room for generalisation. I would agree that at 3 x Drink Drive limit he would have known and would be very likely that others would notice. He would know that the amount of alcohol consumed the night before meant that he should not be shooting.

 

All in all this bloke is a tool. Shouldn't be operating any machinery let alone a gun. Interesting point raised re certificate. To develop it what prevents him from doing this again. Section 21 will not apply. Can't think of any other legislative tool which would bar him.

[bedwards1966]

All in all this bloke is a tool. Shouldn't be operating any machinery let alone a gun. Interesting point raised re certificate. To develop it what prevents him from doing this again. Section 21 will not apply. Can't think of any other legislative tool which would bar him.

 

His firearms department only need to show that he cannot hold a shotgun without a danger to the public (through such things as drink problems). After an incident such as this, where he has very effectively demonstrated he is not safe, and that he drinks excessive amounts and uses a firearm at the same time, there is no way that a court would grant him a certificate if he appeals against a revocation or renewal.

[bedwards1966]

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition, a working party is in hand to bring in better and safer controls in the licence applications and management of the sport, i'm sure David from BASC can expand, but its to bring us in line with Countries like Germany, where you have to sit an exam and take lessons before granting a gun licence.

 

What would this have done in this situation?

I'm sure the moron responsible for this knows full well that you shouldn't drink and shoot, and that you should not point a loaded shotgun at someone, yet because he's an idiot he has done so anyway.

How would any further training or exams have prevented this idiot from holding a certificate?

 

Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance.......

Well as least the bloke was asking...

I fail to see the problem. If someone needs to know how to shoot safely, they ask. If they want to learn how to be a better shot, they ask. Everybody has to start somewhere, provided it's done in a sensible way there are no problems. It's only idiots such as this one being discussed who cause problems, and I fail to see how any level of training is likely to prevent this.

We've been through all this before when nobody could sign your petition as it would do us no good and instead destroy the sport, yet you don't seem to be learning from everybody around you.

 

Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting, auto's are bad enough, i forget how many discharges i have seen and jamb ups, and see the shooter turn round assuring everyone that the gun is clear only to see a cartridge pop out.

Well that is very bad gun handling, but what has it to do with the type of action? And who on earth are you to decide that any particular type of gun is unsuitable?

Semi's and pumps are no more dangerous than people who pull break action guns out of the slip without breaking them, who carry them unbroken, and who turn round after shooting without breaking it, and who don't keep the gun pointed in a safe direction after a misfire.

This is bad handling, and is just as bad for any type of gun, and should be addressed when seen.

Apart from an obvious personal dislike of them, why do you not accept that pump actions are suitable for clays?

I don't like Corsa's and Saxo's, but I don't go round asking for them to be banned from the roads. What's the difference?

 

Dennis

[Scully]

.Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting, auto's are bad enough, i forget how many discharges i have seen and jamb ups, and see the shooter turn round assuring everyone that the gun is clear only to see a cartridge pop out.

 

Dennis

I usually have a large amount of tolerance and time for your posts Dennis,but you're now talking absolute ********.Pumps and autos do not hold the monopoly on negligent discharges and are no more dangerous than any other type of firearm;if you think otherwise you're an idiot,and if any part of your E-petition is implemented them I'm off.

[TopDown]

His firearms department only need to show that he cannot hold a shotgun without a danger to the public (through such things as drink problems). After an incident such as this, where he has very effectively demonstrated he is not safe, and that he drinks excessive amounts and uses a firearm at the same time, there is no way that a court would grant him a certificate if he appeals against a revocation or renewal.

 

He doesn't need to have a certificate though

[denniswebb]

I am not sure but i think pump action shotguns are not allowed at registered clayshoots, and Gordon it come easy to me because i come from a background of working in the emergency services, 30 years sitting on County, Regional and Olympic committees and see at first hand the stupity that is endemic in our sport, i have seen a shooter knock out a women ref and nothing done about it, every thing swept under the carpet, i don't sit on any committees now and prefer to just stick my nose in now and again on these websites. There are changes coming up that will shock many of you and what we have to do is ensure we are instrumental in fashioning those changes working with the authorities, if we let the police do it unchallenged thenits the end of this sport as we know it....I have come to the conclusion Gordon that you must be a copper. or an ex one.

 

Dennis

[bedwards1966]

He doesn't need to have a certificate though

 

Fair point, but I can't see there being much danger. I can't see many people in the area lending a shotgun and supervising him after this. If he moves and avoids recognition elsewhere he'll be closely supervised as a non-cert holder.

[bedwards1966]

I am not sure but i think pump action shotguns are not allowed at registered clayshoots,

Yes, it may be considered by some to spoil the image of a gentlemans' sport - but for those of us who don't wear tweeds and only use a SxS we prefer to get on with life. Just because some shoots aren't keen on them does not mean they aren't suitable, nor does it mean they should be banned.

 

and Gordon it come easy to me because i come from a background of working in the emergency services

Wow, it's not often I hear someone admit to speaking drivel!,

 

30 years sitting on County, Regional and Olympic committees and see at first hand the stupity that is endemic in our sport,

A quick read of a couple of posts I've just replied to allows me to see this stupidity for myself...

 

 

i have seen a shooter knock out a women ref and nothing done about it, every thing swept under the carpet,i don't sit on any committees now by your choice?and prefer to just stick my nose in now and again on these websites. Is there anyone else who'll accept you? There are changes coming up that will shock many of you examples and proof would be great and what we have to do is ensure we are instrumental in fashioning those changes working with the authorities, if we let the police do it unchallenged thenits the end of this sport as we know it... While you have a point here, your proposals seem to be helping them stop shooting, even if your intentions are for the best.I have come to the conclusion Gordon that you must be a copper. or an ex one.

 

Dennis

[denniswebb]

Doesn't it shock any of you that this person was give a licence before the licencing officer knew if he was both competant in using a gun and had a measure of understanding where to use it. It was only when he told the shop staff that he had bought these guns elsewhere that asked him what he was doing with them and steered him in the direction of a shooting ground and lessons, he may not have even gone there but sitting at home wondering where to go next . In my time i have seen World champions turn up the next day still drunk and shooting a competion, i went out with this guy in Italy and he was drinking gin and tonics in a pint glass during the evening and still won the shoot the next day. I had seen him drink 17 pints of stella and still win the Home Internationals in Scotland, the blame has to be with the authorities who let him do it, there were complaints but the authorities don't act, shooting is still seen as a recreactional sport where almost anything goes.

 

Dennis

[bedwards1966]

Doesn't it shock any of you that this person was give a licence before the licencing officer knew if he was both competant in using a gun and had a measure of understanding where to use it.

How many accidents have happened because of this? When you give me the figure we'll take it from there.

 

It was only when he told the shop staff that he had bought these guns elsewhere that asked him what he was doing with them and steered him in the direction of a shooting ground and lessons, he may not have even gone there but sitting at home wondering where to go next . In my time i have seen World champions turn up the next day still drunk and shooting a competion, i went out with this guy in Italy and he was drinking gin and tonics in a pint glass during the evening and still won the shoot the next day. I had seen him drink 17 pints of stella and still win the Home Internationals in Scotland, the blame has to be with the authorities who let him do it, there were complaints but the authorities don't act, shooting is still seen as a recreactional sport where almost anything goes.

Well there may be things that could be improved and things that should not be overlooked, but your ideas of compulsory training aren't going to tackle the issues. All they will do in interfere with our right to hold a certificate - you go on about it being made harder for shooters, yet your trying to take away out rights even further!

 

Dennis

 

Every time someone points something out to you, suggesting your wrong, you seem to change topic and fail to address the points raised. Perhaps it's time you found something to do which your good at, as (thankfully) damaging this sport and putting an argument forward in any way isn't something your very good at.

[parapilot]

The guy was drunk, he pointed a loaded gun at so one. Don't matter if its a pump, semi, over under, it was the user at fault not the gun. Even if it was 'faulty' it should not had been pointing where it was.

 

Your a fool to start campaigning to bad pumps, or ban anything. if this drunk fool had done it with a over and under would you have a silly e partition then?? Once we start banning things, it starts strangling our sport, and one thing leads to another. Till we are all making that trip to the police station to hand in our guns for good. This was a drunk fool. He must have stank of booze I think the clay ground / other shooters are out of order not saying anything. If I seen someone on site drunk I'd ask them to leave and If they didn't report them to the management / police.

[guest1957]

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition, a working party is in hand to bring in better and safer controls in the licence applications and management of the sport, i'm sure David from BASC can expand, but its to bring us in line with Countries like Germany, where you have to sit an exam and take lessons before granting a gun licence. Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance.......Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting.

 

Dennis

 

Is all of this fiction?

[HDAV]

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition, a working party is in hand to bring in better and safer controls in the licence applications and management of the sport, i'm sure David from BASC can expand, but its to bring us in line with Countries like Germany, where you have to sit an exam and take lessons before granting a gun licence.

 

How is this of any benefit? Either he was "having a go" and doesn't have a certificate or was a an idiot (capable of passing any exam required) of course no one who took a driving theory test has had a crash which was avoidable, or killed someone on the road......

 

 

Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance.......

 

And i bet they still took his cash and let him walk out of the shop!

Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting, auto's are bad enough, i forget how many discharges i have seen and jamb ups, and see the shooter turn round assuring everyone that the gun is clear only to see a cartridge pop out.

 

Dennis

I dont own a pump action or a semi but have seen unsafe handling with all forms of guns, its not the gun but the monkey holding it that makes it safe or not!

[JonathanL]

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition, a working party is in hand to bring in better and safer controls in the licence applications and management of the sport, i'm sure David from BASC can expand, but its to bring us in line with Countries like Germany, where you have to sit an exam and take lessons before granting a gun licence. Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance.......Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting, auto's are bad enough, i forget how many discharges i have seen and jamb ups, and see the shooter turn round assuring everyone that the gun is clear only to see a cartridge pop out.

 

Dennis

 

If you are serious in this then you are an idot who has no place in shooting.

 

J.

[cant hit rabbits 123]

Fortunatley moves are afoot nationally to devise a workable system that will deal with many of my proposals in the E Petition, a working party is in hand to bring in better and safer controls in the licence applications and management of the sport, i'm sure David from BASC can expand, but its to bring us in line with Countries like Germany, where you have to sit an exam and take lessons before granting a gun licence. Only today i spoke to one the top gunshops owners in the country who told me that someone came into his shop and had bought 2 rifles and a shotgun and then asked where he could have lesson.......This is an intollerable situation in this sport, where you can just walk in and buy a gun with no level of competance.......Pump action shotguns have no place in this sport and should be banned, they were bought out for a specific purpose and thats not clayshooting, auto's are bad enough, i forget how many discharges i have seen and jamb ups, and see the shooter turn round assuring everyone that the gun is clear only to see a cartridge pop out.

 

Dennis

 

I cannot believe you just said that pump actions should be banned and implied that auto's should be banned too. Yes they may jam up occasionally, but what about when a novices O/U sticks shut with two in the chamber and they turn around and risk shooting whoever is behind them? If auto's should be banned on the grounds that they can go wrong, then why not just ban all guns and throw cartridges at the clays? We're not all elite world class shooters who shoot at competitions and major locations and some of use enjoy having a bit of fun on the clays with a pump action at the local hay baler. Then again, from what you've already written, I suppose under your new rules they would be banned too. So what if I want to shoot an auto or a pump action? Its just as easy to turn around and point a loaded gun at those behind you with an over and under. A working party is working on firearms legislation? You mean parliament? Because they make the guns laws in this country, not the police, not BASC and certainly not you.

[denniswebb]

Lets look at the facts, if i was a ground owner and a clayshooter turn up with a pump action shotgun and i never knew him i would ask him what he was doing there, but then how the hell did he then load a gun and face other shooters there, forget the drinking bit, what the problem was that he must have had an idea the gun was faulty yet still took the rubbish to a shoot and tried to shoot at something, in this case other members of the squad. Doesn't it tell you he knew next to nothing about guns, doesn't that prove that shooters should have basic training about guns, you just cannot rely on shooters learning from a mate, they have to start at the beginning and take competance test, when i go to a shoot abroad i make dam sure the other members of the squad are safe, isn't that the first rule of clayshooting , watch other shooters to see if they are safe, in this case you could not rely on the ground owner to make sure everyone is safe.......Straw bales shoots are a curse on the sport, anyone that sets one up should have a licence to do so, is it no wonder shooters get shot, whats it going to take to get it through your thick sculls, someone getting killed next time.....I don't like guns that are not safe at clay shoots, if an auto uses has a little flag out the side to show the gun is safe, thats fine but how many do that ?

 

You are all living in cloud cookoo land.....I was told this information today about a national working party to bring in changes to improve the sport, as far as i know all parties, shooting organisations, police and government.

 

Dennis

[Dekers]

Dennis, I can't help thinking you are going to get some responses, and I can't help thinking this guy was a complete knob, just what sort of individual training and shoot licencing would have changed that?

 

I am a NRA RCO, Shooting Instructor etc and I will always question anyone about unsafe handling of any gun, wherever I happen to be or whatever I am doing!

 

What sort of additional training/test would you advocate for me?

 

I also do a LOT of work in the field, would that be the same or a different course?