Gordon R Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Dennis - the most worrying aspect of this is that you hold a licence. Either you post to get a reaction or you are one slice short of a full loaf. On either count, I feel genuinely sorry for you. Your views have no relevance. You are out of touch and prejudiced. Carry on dreaming that your e-petition has some meaning. Those of us in the real world see it - and you - for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Lets look at the facts, if i was a ground owner and a clayshooter turn up with a pump action shotgun and i never knew him i would ask him what he was doing there, but then how the hell did he then load a gun and face other shooters there, forget the drinking bit, what the problem was that he must have had an idea the gun was faulty yet still took the rubbish to a shoot and tried to shoot at something, in this case other members of the squad. Doesn't it tell you he knew next to nothing about guns, doesn't that prove that shooters should have basic training about guns, you just cannot rely on shooters learning from a mate, they have to start at the beginning and take competance test, when i go to a shoot abroad i make dam sure the other members of the squad are safe, isn't that the first rule of clayshooting , watch other shooters to see if they are safe, in this case you could not rely on the ground owner to make sure everyone is safe.......Straw bales shoots are a curse on the sport, anyone that sets one up should have a licence yp to do so, is it no wonder shooters get shot, whats it going to take to get it through your thick sculls, someone getting killed next time.....I don't like guns that are not safe at clay shoots, if an auto uses has a little flag out the side to show the gun is safe, thats fine but how many do that ? You are all living in cloud cookoo land.....I was told this information today about a national working party to bring in changes to improve the sport, as far as i know all parties, shooting organisations, police and government. Dennis Just read back through your posts Dennis,then answer this.How would anything you propose stop the negligent dischage of shotguns?How would anything you propose stop your world champion turn up to a comp' half cut,or your italian mate from drinking gin and tonics and then competing?Why are straw bale shoots a curse?Do these type of shoots have a higher percentage of shooting accidents than any other type of shoot?As pumps and autos are amongst the most commonly used type of shotguns, worldwide on a daily basis,wouldn't we be hearing about it if these types of shotgun were inherently dangerous?Do you know the relevant incidencies of accidental shootings per 'mechanism' of shotgun type?I know of quite a few regarding double ejectors(possibly because of their high useage in this country)but not many relating to pumps or autos. Your ideas for training etc can have no effect on 'accidents' Dennis,and when this is proved,what is the next logical step?Get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Straw bales shoots are a curse on the sport, anyone that sets one up should have a licence to do so, is it no wonder shooters get shot, whats it going to take to get it through your thick sculls, someone getting killed next time.....I don't like guns that are not safe at clay shoots, if an auto uses has a little flag out the side to show the gun is safe, thats fine but how many do that ? I was told this information today about a national working party to bring in changes to improve the sport, as far as i know all parties, shooting organisations, police and government. So you're an elitist? Many people cannot afford to shoot at large commercial clay shoots, or they may be too far away for it to be a regular event. Straw balers solve the cost and distance issues. Banning straw balers (and needing a license to run one will just force them into being commercial businesses) will force many out of the sport. Of course, I can't see you minding this too much. Also, before you go insulting all of those who disagree with you (whom you have also likely never met) by calling them thick skulled (uneducated) I would advise you that you are speaking to a range of people which includes those of a very high educational standard, they are not thick just because they do not agree with you. If you want to persuade people to your side, try not to alienate everyone first. Again, you dont like guns that are not safe at clay shoots? Over and under or auto, you can swing both about and shoot some poor soul just as easily as each other. Just because an auto or pump doesn't have a break open action doesn't mean you're more or less likely to shoot someone with it. Please, kindly state the source of your information about this working party. If BASC are working towards more restrictions on shooting, especially without telling its members, I cant see them having many members next year, and they probably dont want to gamble their pay pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Sadly - Dennis cannot grasp the reality - he is a bitter individual - out of touch with shooting. Sometimes, I genuinely think he is out of touch with reality. All a bit tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I am not sure but i think pump action shotguns are not allowed at registered clayshoots,... What is a 'registered clay shoot'? ..i have seen a shooter knock out a women ref and nothing done about it, every thing swept under the carpet, So you have seen someone use extreme violence against a woman at an event and you did nothing about it? I don't believe you. If it's true then you are no better than those you are accusing of covering it up. As said previously - you are an idiot. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) I normally agree with you but you are a bit off on this I am afraid. 3 x Drink Drive limit is quite a lot of beer but not difficult to achieve with spirits, wine etc. Your description of the roadside stop is not accurate either. I would be disappointed if it's not inside 1 hour from stop to evidential test. This does differ from force to force though. The point being that the evidence suggests that it was many hours since he last drank. To get to three times the limit is one thing but the fact that he was three times the limit even though he hadn't drunk anything for hours suggests that he had consumed a very large amount. My description of how a roadside breath test is carried out is pretty accurate. Google it. All in all this bloke is a tool. Shouldn't be operating any machinery let alone a gun. Interesting point raised re certificate. To develop it what prevents him from doing this again. Section 21 will not apply. Can't think of any other legislative tool which would bar him. The police can pull his cert if he has one. Perhaps they already have? Nothing to stop him from turning up at a clay ground and shooting though. However, one would hope, and expect, that he would be turned away if he turned up stinking of drink. J. Edited November 26, 2012 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 He doesn't need to have a certificate though And your point is? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Lets look at the facts, if i was a ground owner and a clayshooter turn up with a pump action shotgun and i never knew him i would ask him what he was doing there, but then how the hell did he then load a gun and face other shooters there, forget the drinking bit, what the problem was that he must have had an idea the gun was faulty yet still took the rubbish to a shoot and tried to shoot at something, in this case other members of the squad. Doesn't it tell you he knew next to nothing about guns, doesn't that prove that shooters should have basic training about guns, you just cannot rely on shooters learning from a mate, they have to start at the beginning and take competance test, when i go to a shoot abroad i make dam sure the other members of the squad are safe, isn't that the first rule of clayshooting , watch other shooters to see if they are safe, in this case you could not rely on the ground owner to make sure everyone is safe.......Straw bales shoots are a curse on the sport, anyone that sets one up should have a licence to do so, is it no wonder shooters get shot, whats it going to take to get it through your thick sculls, someone getting killed next time.....I don't like guns that are not safe at clay shoots, if an auto uses has a little flag out the side to show the gun is safe, thats fine but how many do that ? You are all living in cloud cookoo land.....I was told this information today about a national working party to bring in changes to improve the sport, as far as i know all parties, shooting organisations, police and government. Dennis Too difficult to read so gave up after the first couple of words. Try to learn what paragraphs and punctuation are, and how to use them, and people might start listening to you. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Some of the best quality gun handling safety that I've seen is done at 'straw balers' and some of the worst is done by certain people who are sponsored by 'official' clay grounds, and think they virtually own them, and can do what they like. Personally, I don't like semis and pumps. But (and I've said it in other posts) I accept that is a PERSONAL opinion. I don't think they are the best guns for new shooters, due to the whole 'clearly safe' thing. In experienced and competent hands, however, they are perfectly safe. It's not the gun that is dangerous, it's the person holding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 The only pump shotgun i have seen at a clayshoot over the past 20 years is used by John Bidwell at his trick shooting events, i have never seen one used at a registered shoot. We live in a World where health & Safety play an important part of all sports, this incident only demonstrated that compliance is essential, the girl who lost her hearing couldn't have had ear plugs in, the guy had a loaded shotgun pointed at other shooters at the ground, some of the others must have been aware he had a hangover and was not competant, all breeches of the CPSA rules. It only demonstate that there is no room in this sport for grounds not to have certification or qualified staff. Everyone who takes part in this sport has to belong to one of the associations, until then incidents such as this will continue to happen.....As i have said in the past the freedom to roam at will and discharge your gun without regard to the consequences is coming to an end.......Wherever you come up against the establishment you are treated like scum, try going through the ferries now and don't declare your guns and see the grief you get from customs . I only mentioned the incident with the girl reffee because although it was 20 years ago and i did my best to get him thrown out of the CPSA he turned up last week at a clay shoot, the police did turn up at the shoot but suggested that its not in the interest of the sport to air this in public, the girl had a broken nose, but for some reason did not press charges. I have been involved in staw bale shoots many years ago ( i did run 2 shooting grounds, Pitsea marshes and botony hill , billericay) i have seen loads of accidents where un trained shooters have been smacked in the face with a trap arm hit by clays, broken fingers, bad cuts, why should staw bales shoots be exempt from the practices that are common in every other industry. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 CPSA rules, **** the CPSA, they are a bunch of idiots who lost any and all of the little respect I had for them at least 20 years ago. They are a dinosaur with no concept of modern society, hanging on to their own little world and jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I have been involved in staw bale shoots many years ago ( i did run 2 shooting grounds, Pitsea marshes and botony hill , billericay) i have seen loads of accidents where un trained shooters have been smacked in the face with a trap arm hit by clays, broken fingers, bad cuts, why should staw bales shoots be exempt from the practices that are common in every other industry. Dennis Hate to say it, but if these accidents happened at the shoots you were involved in running : What the hell were you doing, letting untrained people operate / be close to traps, to be injured by the trap arms. Getting hit by clays : same applies. If you are firing the clays out at people, then you are incompetent. Straw bale shoots are not exempt from Health and Safety laws or legislation. If someone is injured at a straw bale shoot, and the injury is due to some muppet firing the clays out AT the shooters, then the organiser would be found liable in court. That is the basic 'duty of care' that is owed. Same if you have asked a person you know is not competent to operate a clay thrower, and they get injured by it If, on the other hand, someone has come along, bigged themselves up, said that yeah, they can operate those clay throwers, have done it loads of times, etc ... and then gets injured by the throwing arm, then they are liable for their own actions, to a large extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Lets look at the facts, if i was a ground owner and a clayshooter turn up with a pump action shotgun and i never knew him i would ask him what he was doing there, but then how the hell did he then load a gun and face other shooters there, forget the drinking bit, what the problem was that he must have had an idea the gun was faulty yet still took the rubbish to a shoot and tried to shoot at something, in this case other members of the squad. Doesn't it tell you he knew next to nothing about guns, doesn't that prove that shooters should have basic training about guns, you just cannot rely on shooters learning from a mate, they have to start at the beginning and take competance test, when i go to a shoot abroad i make dam sure the other members of the squad are safe, isn't that the first rule of clayshooting , watch other shooters to see if they are safe, in this case you could not rely on the ground owner to make sure everyone is safe.......Straw bales shoots are a curse on the sport, anyone that sets one up should have a licence to do so, is it no wonder shooters get shot, whats it going to take to get it through your thick sculls, someone getting killed next time.....I don't like guns that are not safe at clay shoots, if an auto uses has a little flag out the side to show the gun is safe, thats fine but how many do that ? You are all living in cloud cookoo land.....I was told this information today about a national working party to bring in changes to improve the sport, as far as i know all parties, shooting organisations, police and government. Dennis The only pump shotgun i have seen at a clayshoot over the past 20 years is used by John Bidwell at his trick shooting events, i have never seen one used at a registered shoot. We live in a World where health & Safety play an important part of all sports, this incident only demonstrated that compliance is essential, the girl who lost her hearing couldn't have had ear plugs in, the guy had a loaded shotgun pointed at other shooters at the ground, some of the others must have been aware he had a hangover and was not competant, all breeches of the CPSA rules. It only demonstate that there is no room in this sport for grounds not to have certification or qualified staff. Everyone who takes part in this sport has to belong to one of the associations, until then incidents such as this will continue to happen.....As i have said in the past the freedom to roam at will and discharge your gun without regard to the consequences is coming to an end.......Wherever you come up against the establishment you are treated like scum, try going through the ferries now and don't declare your guns and see the grief you get from customs . I only mentioned the incident with the girl reffee because although it was 20 years ago and i did my best to get him thrown out of the CPSA he turned up last week at a clay shoot, the police did turn up at the shoot but suggested that its not in the interest of the sport to air this in public, the girl had a broken nose, but for some reason did not press charges. I have been involved in staw bale shoots many years ago ( i did run 2 shooting grounds, Pitsea marshes and botony hill , billericay) i have seen loads of accidents where un trained shooters have been smacked in the face with a trap arm hit by clays, broken fingers, bad cuts, why should staw bales shoots be exempt from the practices that are common in every other industry. Dennis You can't gain any credibility by continuing to sprout meaningless garbage and failing to answer points put across to you, such as the responses I've posted. A debate is a very good thing, however you are just talking nonsense, most of it isn't even relevant to what you propose. You aren't listening to anything anyone says - I expect a 5 year old to blindly repeat himself with his fingers in his ears, not someone who claims to have been so involved in the sport who is trying to change things. Also, looking at the accidents which have happened under your control of shooting grounds, I fail to see how you can possibly lecture others on health and safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 The only pump shotgun i have seen at a clayshoot over the past 20 years is used by John Bidwell at his trick shooting events, i have never seen one used at a registered shoot. We live in a World where health & Safety play an important part of all sports, this incident only demonstrated that compliance is essential, the girl who lost her hearing couldn't have had ear plugs in, the guy had a loaded shotgun pointed at other shooters at the ground, some of the others must have been aware he had a hangover and was not competant, all breeches of the CPSA rules. Well, what is the point of even more regulation if people are breaching the rules to start with? It only demonstate that there is no room in this sport for grounds not to have certification or qualified staff. Everyone who takes part in this sport has to belong to one of the associations, until then incidents such as this will continue to happen..... Total rubbish. Being 'qualified' whatever you mean by that does not automaticaly make you safe and being 'unqualified' doesn't automatically mean that you are a danger. Qualified by whom, may I ask? No one should have a beling to any organisation if they don't want to. If I want to run a clay shoot (or any other type of shoot) on my land then wy should anyone be allowed to tell me that I can't? As i have said in the past the freedom to roam at will and discharge your gun without regard to the consequences is coming to an end. If you honestly believe that that is currently the case then you are delusional. Wherever you come up against the establishment you are treated like scum, try going through the ferries now and don't declare your guns and see the grief you get from customs. What on earth are you on about? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I follow a simple rule in life. If i am driving or shooting i do not drink, not even one.... It's the best way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 We live in a World where health & Safety play an important part of all sports, this incident only demonstrated that compliance is essential. Dennis One of the blokes shot by the 'idiot with a gun' was a Health & Safety official Dennis,unless I'm mistaken.Whether he was there in an official capacity I have no idea. 'Compliance' with what Dennis?Do you mean the 'do not shoot when rat-***** or hungover' rule?If there is such a rule it isn't very effective is it?No doubt 'training' would negate the possibility of this happening again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I saw all thse accidents at clubs i used to belong to 30 years ago and charity shoots, run by well meaning amatures , all i can say to many of you is you don't get out much....The establishment treat gun owners as criminals, you don't get the benifit of the doubt any more, you are treated as a suspicious person and someone that needs further investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I saw all thse accidents at clubs i used to belong to 30 years ago and charity shoots, run by well meaning amatures , all i can say to many of you is you don't get out much....The establishment treat gun owners as criminals, you don't get the benifit of the doubt any more, you are treated as a suspicious person and someone that needs further investigation. Well, you went to some right dodgy shoots, and why didn't you do something about it? There are times it's a good idea to stop digging Dennis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) The establishment treat gun owners as criminals, you don't get the benifit of the doubt any more, you are treated as a suspicious person and someone that needs further investigation.Really? Have you considered that's just the way they treat you? In all honesty, based on your comments in this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did. Edited November 26, 2012 by MartynGT4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 I saw all thse accidents at clubs i used to belong to 30 years ago and charity shoots, run by well meaning amatures , all i can say to many of you is you don't get out much....The establishment treat gun owners as criminals, you don't get the benifit of the doubt any more, you are treated as a suspicious person and someone that needs further investigation. So the answer to that is to let the 'establishment' foist yet more pointless rules and regs on us then? As has been pointed out to you a vast number of times; the bloke in this story broke pretty much every rule of safe gun handing there is. These rules are hardly rocket science and every shooter knows them well. You can write whatever rules you like but if someone decides to show up to a shoot whilst ratted off his tree there is not a lot you can do. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 You can write whatever rules you like but if someone decides to show up to a shoot whilst ratted off his tree there is not a lot you can do. How true. That sort of stupidity can only be policed effectively by the shoot and \ or other shooters. We just need to be prepared to intervene if we witness unsafe behaviour, including intoxication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Dennis, instead of slagging off unregistered shooters why don't you do something about it? OddJob on here is looking for a qualified/experienced shot to help him out with some youngsters on Saturday at the Fennes. It's not far from you and you could actually put something back into the sport, rather than just rip it apart. However bizarre some of your thinking seems to be there's no doubt you're a decent shot, so why not practice what you preach and help out at grass roots level? I'm sure the youngsters would appreciate it, and they are after all the future of the sport you're so desperate to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Lets look at the facts, if i was a ground owner and a clayshooter turn up with a pump action shotgun and i never knew him i would ask him what he was doing there, but then how the hell did he then load a gun and face other shooters there, forget the drinking bit, what the problem was that he must have had an idea the gun was faulty yet still took the rubbish to a shoot and tried to shoot at something, in this case other members of the squad. Doesn't it tell you he knew next to nothing about guns, doesn't that prove that shooters should have basic training about guns, you just cannot rely on shooters learning from a mate, they have to start at the beginning and take competance test, when i go to a shoot abroad i make dam sure the other members of the squad are safe, isn't that the first rule of clayshooting , watch other shooters to see if they are safe, in this case you could not rely on the ground owner to make sure everyone is safe.......Straw bales shoots are a curse on the sport, anyone that sets one up should have a licence to do so, is it no wonder shooters get shot, whats it going to take to get it through your thick sculls, someone getting killed next time.....I don't like guns that are not safe at clay shoots, if an auto uses has a little flag out the side to show the gun is safe, thats fine but how many do that ? You are all living in cloud cookoo land.....I was told this information today about a national working party to bring in changes to improve the sport, as far as i know all parties, shooting organisations, police and government. Dennis hey, i shoot a pump ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Oh! your from Haverhill say no more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Dennis - for someone who purports to support clay shooting, you have a very odd way of showing it. You criticise:- Pump-action users. Semi-automatic users. Straw bale shooters. Straw bale shooting ground owners. People who buy guns and have the nerve to inquire about shooting lessons. Shooters who haven't taken any courses. People from Haverhill. Shooters who don't belong to the CPSA. Shooters who hit women - but then again you did your best to sort that one. Not that it ever got sorted. Anyone who disagrees with you. Is there anyone who you do like - yourself aside? In my time i have seen World champions turn up the next day still drunk and shooting a competion, i went out with this guy in Italy and he was drinking gin and tonics in a pint glass during the evening and still won the shoot the next day. I had seen him drink 17 pints of stella and still win the Home Internationals in Scotland, the blame has to be with the authorities who let him do it, there were complaints but the authorities don't act, when i go to a shoot abroad i make dam sure the other members of the squad are safe, isn't that the first rule of clayshooting , watch other shooters to see if they are safe, I saw all thse accidents at clubs i used to belong to 30 years ago and charity shoots, run by well meaning amatures , A bit of double standards here Dennis. You happily drink with people who are very drunk, but are happy to let them shoot the day after. No doubt you complained again. You don't seem very effective in your complaints. As for seeing numerous accidents at a club, you remained a member. You seem bent on destroying the very sport you claim to support. I question your motives. You may say it is to improve things. Forgive me - I see it the opposite way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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