Hand gun bans?

[Paxtond]

hi guys, first off if this has been covered I'm sorry, and please don't let this become and slanging match

 

 

after watching some bits about the current obama gun control issues in the usa i started to thought about our own issues and did a bit of digging online.

 

with hand gun crime numbers at a all time high i was wondering if any of the shooting organisations had tried to challenge the ban?

 

i am to young to remember the ban, being only 8 years old but have been told by many a shooter how the whole thing was a farce and cost the tax payer millions in compensation payouts.

 

so my question is have any of the major organisations tried to challenge the ban with all the stats and info that is now available to support the fact the ban did nothing other than disarm legit shooters.

 

can't help think fighting for things back might be more proactive than waiting for them to come after something else.

[robbiep]

You are making a regular series of mistakes, namely :

 

1. Politics bears no resemblance to the real world

2. If it looks good politically for votes, then it is going to keep a politician in power. According to a politician, that is good for the country. After all, the other parties are full of idiots.

3. They don't care that gun crime (almost exclusively using illegally held guns) has gone up.

4. The facts are inconvenient (see 1 and 2 above) so can be ignored

 

I do recall a few years ago, at one of the gun crime charities, it was proposed that their money would be better used buying up handguns on the street for destruction, rather than lobbying. Unsurprisingly, the 'top dogs' at the charity made sure that was quietly killed off. After all, can't have them losing their plush london offices, and access to people in power

 

Oh ...

5. Yes, I'm a total cynic. I used to be a target pistol owner.

[HDAV]

There have been several small failed attempts none made any impact. The Olympics was an ideal oppertunity to try and get .22 pistols reinstated on FAC (sec1) but nothing happened. many of the old pistol shooters gave up totally and many thought rifles and shotguns would follow. As a result the ranges closed, clubs folded and the rest of the shooting world carried on without putting up a fight, if you are expecting even 10% of the push to get Hunting with hounds reinstated (hunting participants numbers at an all time high and rose dramatically after the ban?) you are mistaken. If cameron had amassive majority and was solidly in govt. for 2 terms then maybe there might be a sniff of a change.

 

As we have seen the ban has prevented more recent "spree" killings nor had a major effect on "gun crime" however even at its peak the number of pistol shooters was low, and many areas of the UK they are still legal,Channel islands, isle of man, NI etc I shot .22 in jersey a couple of years ago, worth going to the range if you are over there http://www.jerseypistolclub.info/ good fun but i think unlikely to gain enough support in the UK for any real change of heart. Shooting in general seems to be getting more positive coverage especially in wales at the moment (not sure why) but with investment in new training facilities for national team and the Swansea rifle club secretary organiser going to the BBC sports personality of the year award in the unsung hero category things are looking more positive for once.

 

There are several books on the subject one i have read is "does the trigger pull the finger" which explains the history of firearms laws in the UK (ok so it has an odd tone) but worth a quick read none the less.

 

http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/1906174997

Edited December 1, 2012 by HDAV

[Imperfection]

Despite the many petitions which regulary go around they'll never come back which is a shame because its something i would like to try.

[gazzthompson]

I was under the impression gun crime, like all violent crime, is at an all time low?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

[HDAV]

I was under the impression gun crime, like all violent crime, is at an all time low?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

 

I thought that too, depends on which figured you look at to an extent

[Paxtond]

Despite the many petitions which regulary go around they'll never come back which is a shame because its something i would like to try.

 

but these are just setup by small groups of people and spread by word or mouth/forums.

 

I'm talking about proper organisations trying to do something.

 

i know due to the constitution things are slightly different but in the USA politicians are very wary of the NRA and pro gun lobby.

 

i just feel the uk has a very much " meh, I'm only 1 guy what can i do " attitude.

[HDAV]

I'm talking about proper organisations trying to do something.

 

 

What organisations

[Paxtond]

What organisations

 

nra

basc

CSA

 

the people who advertise that they are " the voice of shooting"

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

Latest available figures say that gun crime is on the decrease.

[gazzthompson]

Shooting community is too small, Average person is normally quite apathetic but very wary of any relaxing in laws. Nothings going to change, Unfortunately.

[beeredup]

must admit its heartening to see the amount of people at clay grounds having intro lessons if a small percentage of these go on to get a SGC and start shooting full time the sport is definately on the up and the amount of firearms related tv programs seem to be on the increase too

[Vince Green]

Technically, handguns were not banned they were reclassified but the end result is much the same. They will never come back, you cannot turn back the clock on that one. What has been argued for with the most promise is for areas of exemption. Similar to the heritage pistols, where you can go and use one but not own it and not take it home. Shooting "theme parks" for want of a better expression.

Twice a year at the Bisley Open days the general public can turn up and shoot Lee Enfields, AK47s M16s etc so its not without precident. Why not have 9mm pistols as well?

 

You will not overturn the ban but there must be quite a lot of room for manoever still within the present ban, I don't understand why nobody wants to try and push that one. I think it has more chance of sucess.

[Reece]

I was under the impression gun crime, like all violent crime, is at an all time low?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

 

Depends on what year you start from. Handgun crime did increase following the handgun ban. On the other hand, even at its peak, Britain had a low rate of handgun crime when compared to most other countries.

[HDAV]

 

 

nra

basc

CSA

 

the people who advertise that they are " the voice of shooting"

 

Voice of there particular enclave perhaps........ Shooting is full of empire builders and mole hill mountaineers...... It's like saying all racquet sports are the same and the LTA should promote badminton or squash

 

CPSA can't even harmonise clay shooting let alone legislation. Only hope is Brussels and a blanket EU law......if you really want to have a go get over to an island.

 

Logic plays no part in this matter and political benefits there are jobs to save, no tax to be collected

[la bala]

the only time handguns would be legal again, is if there were enough so the government could tax them.

[bedwards1966]

It won't happen/hasn't happened for a few reasons:

 

Nobody with enough power or influence will stick themselves out over it.

 

The government won't admit it was a knee-jerk reaction and a complete mistake.

 

It doesn't win politicians more votes than it could lose.

 

Hardly anyone in the shooting world will put in any effort to allow it to happen.

 

As shooters are split among several organisations there isn't one that is large enough to successfully put this forward, they're all too small and weak.

 

 

Simple proof? Out of all the shooters who have access to a computer, only 12,000 can be bothered to take 3 minutes of their time to sign an e-petition to reclassify .22 pistols as S1 - and it needs 100,000 to even go through. No shooter can be against this, they're simply too lazy and inconsiderate as they personally don't want one. Most shooters only support their own narrow part of shooting, leaving the rest to rot.

[JonathanL]

It won't happen/hasn't happened for a few reasons:

 

Nobody with enough power or influence will stick themselves out over it.

 

The government won't admit it was a knee-jerk reaction and a complete mistake.

 

It doesn't win politicians more votes than it could lose.

 

Hardly anyone in the shooting world will put in any effort to allow it to happen.

 

As shooters are split among several organisations there isn't one that is large enough to successfully put this forward, they're all too small and weak.

 

 

Simple proof? Out of all the shooters who have access to a computer, only 12,000 can be bothered to take 3 minutes of their time to sign an e-petition to reclassify .22 pistols as S1 - and it needs 100,000 to even go through. No shooter can be against this, they're simply too lazy and inconsiderate as they personally don't want one. Most shooters only support their own narrow part of shooting, leaving the rest to rot.

 

The huge problem is that the vast majority of shooters in the UK are selfish idiots who can't see beyond their own little areas of interest. Too many of us have this "don't rock the boat" mentaily in case it affects our own particular discipline or type of guns. It's a very short-sighted and dangerous train of thought.

 

In 1988 no one spoke up for semi-auto rifle owners when they were banned. The NRA - the bloody NRA - even made comments about more stringent legislation and that could only mean prohibition as they were section 1 already. The NRA, lets not forget, are supposed to exist to train people in the military arm of the day in case of national emergency. Of course the only thing they were concerned with was not having their single-shot target shooting impinged upon. The same was pretty much the reaction of all the other shooting orgs.

 

No one supported pistol shooters in 1997 either and pistols were banned. Again, not even the NRA to any meaningful degree and the only thing propping up the NRA and Bisley camp financially at the time was the annual Pistol AD event. Again, no great support from shotgunners either. They are the most numerous shooters in the country and could have had a bigt effect on the outcome. Because it wasn't their sport though very few lent any support.

 

The same will happen again next time something is in line to be banned. People like Denniswebb on here will be the first to hang others out to dry if they think it will save their little area of interest if his comments about certain types of shooters and their guns are anything to go by.

 

Shooters have to learn to think of themselves as shooters, not just shotgunners, riflemen or black-powder shooters. Next time something is going to be banned or restricted then all shooters need to go out and march like pistol shooters did in 1996/7, not just the ones who are going to be directly affected. If shotgunners had marched with pistol shooters back then then we may still be shooting pistols today.

 

J.

[Imperfection]

 

Very much agreed.Theres no unity and i honestly think this will be everyones downfall.

[Bloke]

As someone who never shot pistols in the UK before the ban, but shoot pistols when ever I visit friends in the US etc, I have great sympathy for all the legal shooters who lost their pistols as part of the ban. But as some on here have said, there's not enough unity among shooters (and too much inertia among politicians) toget this reversed. we cannot even agree on here, I am suprised that the usual suspects have not already hijacked this thread with the "nut-nut" and "rambo" comments that usuallycome whenever revolver shooting is mentioned, and this is supposedly a site for all shooters! The ban will stay whilever these attitudes persist and whenever politicians bow downto populist themes, rather than doing what is right and sensible.

 

Having said that, As I can't shoot pistols per se over here, I shoot LBP and LBR instead, which although is a pale imitation of the original, is still a lot of fun, as well as black-powder revolvers, which are seriously grin-inducing, and can still be shot without silly extension bars and long barrels. If wishes were granted, we know what we would have, but not for now, I fear...

Edited December 1, 2012 by Bloke

[mossy835]

the only time i use a handguns, and thats when i go to the family farms in michigan for holidays.and cant ever seeing them coming back here,

[Scully]

Most shooters only support their own narrow part of shooting

And not even that at times,IF more proof were needed.Following the shootings in Cumbria,which involved the two most commonly used firearms by British shooters(the humble .22lr BA rifle and a double ejector shotgun)if memory serves,less than 2% of shooters could be bothered to lobby politicians,even though we faced the biggest threat to shooting in recent years.The biggest threat to British shooting comes indirectly from British shooters.More proof?Hungerford.....I don't shoot semi-auto full-bore so I'm not bothered if they go,even though proposed legislation included registration of each shotgun owned/bought and placing high capacity magazine shotguns(more than 2)onto FAC,achieving what exactly?Rather than registation (at their own expense) of their high magazine capacity shotguns,many owners simply didn't bother(I have one such shotgun in my cabinet;now fuly registered and legit')no doubt others will come to light as their owners die.Dunblane....I don't shoot handguns so it doesn't affect me.The horrific shootings used to great effect by a cynical and popular party in opposition to a tired and corruption riddled ruling party.Even the shooting communities biggest and most influential party advised shooters to do nothing;'keep a low profile' I think the phrase was.

Cockermouth....as I've mentioned.

Centre-fire handgun shooting as we knew it aint coming back(not in my lifetime anyhow) so forget about it.I'm more concerned about the future.What if.....?

Edited as I hadn't seen Jonathans post as was typing at the time!More or less similar point.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Scully

[spanj]

It won't happen/hasn't happened for a few reasons:

 

Nobody with enough power or influence will stick themselves out over it.

 

The government won't admit it was a knee-jerk reaction and a complete mistake.

 

It doesn't win politicians more votes than it could lose.

 

Hardly anyone in the shooting world will put in any effort to allow it to happen.

 

As shooters are split among several organisations there isn't one that is large enough to successfully put this forward, they're all too small and weak.

 

 

Simple proof? Out of all the shooters who have access to a computer, only 12,000 can be bothered to take 3 minutes of their time to sign an e-petition to reclassify .22 pistols as S1 - and it needs 100,000 to even go through. No shooter can be against this, they're simply too lazy and inconsiderate as they personally don't want one. Most shooters only support their own narrow part of shooting, leaving the rest to rot.

 

Couldnt agree more. Shooters should support all forms of shooting, apathy WILL kill our sport

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Simple proof? Out of all the shooters who have access to a computer, only 12,000 can be bothered to take 3 minutes of their time to sign an e-petition to reclassify .22 pistols as S1 - and it needs 100,000 to even go through. No shooter can be against this, they're simply too lazy and inconsiderate as they personally don't want one. Most shooters only support their own narrow part of shooting, leaving the rest to rot.

 

It's not quite as simple as that though.

 

I never signed it. Not because I'm lazy or inconsiderate (and I used to shoot pistols) but because I'm a realist.

 

Handguns aren't coming back, get used to it.

 

You can run as many petitions as you like, but the simple fact is there's no votes in it for any party, the police would be against it and the general public won't accept it.

 

Even if the e-petition made it to 100,000 and the issue was debated in parliament nothing would change.

 

Do you honestly believe that the major shooting organisations haven't at some point mooted the idea whilst lobbying ministers? I'd be very surprised if they hadn't, and I'd wager a guess that they'd have been told not to waste their time/resources.

[Vince Green]

I marched in 96/97 but we all knew already it was a done deal. The big problem was that dunblane happened in the build up to a General Election. The shadowy and mysterious snowdrop campaign, about which there are many unresolved questions, did a lot of damage but it was Tony Blair who did the real damage by making a total ban on handguns an election pledge.

 

John Major said wait for the Report and the initial feeling was that auto pistols would go. Later he was forced into making a commitment to banning all centrefire pistols because Tony Blair was using it as a cheap electioneering platform. No sooner had Major said he would ban all centrefire handgun then Tony Blair trumped him by saying he would settle for nothing less than a total ban.

 

It was cheap politics in a style which to my mind typified the whole of Blair's political career. i never liked him and I never trusted him after that. I think history is already proving me right.

 

However, the damage it did to shooting ran deep. It has already been said that pistol shooting was the cash cow. Many gun shops went bust and people I know personally lost their homes and everything. Clubs disappeared all over the country. Other shooting sports lost out as well, many people walked away from the sport in general not just pistol shooting.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Vince Green