al4x Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Some use them BB and know what they are talking about, like you I got fed up of the .22lr bouncing on pasture ground. When you have a corrugated Iron hay shed in the background as a secondary backstop it gives you an inkling the rounds haven't slowed much when they hit. And before any comment it was full of hay at the time and the owner was beside me taking the shot. HMR on the same field I am yet to repeat the exercise but am a lot happier without the zinging. Yes you do always need to bear it in mind it could happen but it is so much less cost of ammo well we have proper jobs down this way and with it being a similar cost to shotgun cartridges I'm yet to start leaving that at home as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) All my land at the moment bar a bit on the North Norfolk coast (full of flint but excellent barley ground) is water logged. By that i mean it's up to the top of your wellies if you walk through it. .17HMR and .22LR do not ricochet in this ****. They just go thuud or twaaaack in the ground. Just my experience gents at this point in time. Come the hard ground they are both a different kettle of fish...... Edited December 3, 2012 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Not only does the HMR ricochet less off the ground, it's also much more likely to end up in a rabbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 it's also much more likely to end up in a rabbit. and that bit is so true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 As always we are off on a tangent, but something that is seldom mentioned about ricochets is that if you actually hit your target, then the ricochet chances are seriously reduced or removed altogether, and I have yet to hear of many people who ever admit to missing their target here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 you'd think so dekers but I've witnessed a rabbit headshot and ricochet after with a .22 on the same field mentioned above with the characteristic bang as it hit the shed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) you'd think so dekers but I've witnessed a rabbit headshot and ricochet after with a .22 on the same field mentioned above with the characteristic bang as it hit the shed. Of course, so have I, and thats what I was suggesting, if you hit the target and the bullet carries through then energy has been lost and "...ricochet chances are seriously reduced or removed" ! Edited December 4, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 The hmr does not bounce anywhere near what the 22lr does and to say it is more likely to bounce on flat fields simply is not true. It is a smaller faster round and will break up more easily on impact as opposed to the 22 which is slower and has greater mass therefore more likely to ricochet. please read my post again "Rushes" were mentioned in regards 17hmr flat fields or otherwise apply to every calibre as they all need some form of backstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I think one should bear in mind that we all live and shoot different locations. I have had one ricochet with the HMR on frozen ground (early days when i stupidly believed the over hype) BUT numerous zingers occured when the .17 bullet hits sedge rushes which abound in the lower fields here (heather on fell tops, then white grass comming down then poor grass mud and rushes were the water collects). The slower heavier .22 never gives me consern with such vegitation but the HMR fairly started to consern me regards this. Although the 17-20grn bullet might break up well after a good hit i am far from convinced this is the case on impact with what is no more than a thicker stemmed version of grass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I think one should bear in mind that we all live and shoot different locations. I have had one ricochet with the HMR on frozen ground (early days when i stupidly believed the over hype) BUT numerous zingers occured when the .17 bullet hits sedge rushes which abound in the lower fields here (heather on fell tops, then white grass comming down then poor grass mud and rushes were the water collects). The slower heavier .22 never gives me consern with such vegitation but the HMR fairly started to consern me regards this. Although the 17-20grn bullet might break up well after a good hit i am far from convinced this is the case on impact with what is no more than a thicker stemmed version of grass So you are saying a 17hmr bounces off these sedge rushes and the 22 goes through them ? I cant think of any material or vegetation where that would be the case.I found that it was completely the other way round as the 22 is not going fast enough to penetrate or break up as opposed to the little hmr pill going much faster. Have you owned both calibers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 So you are saying a 17hmr bounces off these sedge rushes and the 22 goes through them ? I cant think of any material or vegetation where that would be the case.I found that it was completely the other way round as the 22 is not going fast enough to penetrate or break up as opposed to the little hmr pill going much faster. Have you owned both calibers ? Yes i have owned both calibres and used them extensively in real life in real fields with real rushes (INDEED I ONLY NEED WALK 40YDS FROM MY DOOR TO DO SO). The .22 will deviate if you try and shoot through the stuff leading to changed impact points but i have never had a full on zinger- hads plenty with the HMR. On rocks etc the tale might be different but so much depends on angle of deflection (remember twice the energy has maximum range connotations) I was reading some tests done in the states not long back and they failed to get a ricochet from a .22 to make more than 400 yds- not that i should trust that on taking a shot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Surely it all depends on which part of the bullet strikes first. If the tip makes contact I'd be surprised if there was a full bullet ricochet, fragments or pieces of jacket whining off a short distance perhaps; but if the body of the bullet srikes a glancing blow without the tip making contact you would get an intact full bullet ricochet which would scream off like a meteor. This would account for ricochets off rushes or similarly stiff vegetation. I've never shot such ground but I don't doubt it can happen. An HMR may be quick by rimfire standards but compared to a CF its slow. A .222/.223 has another 1000/1200 fps on it. The HMR hasn't the speed to provide reliable fragmentation from anything other than a tip impact nor the weight and inertia to push soft obstructions (like rushes) aside. They certainly fly off stoney ground, as I've discovered, far more readily than the .222. The real danger with .22lr bounces is they're so erratic. I've had a bullet whine off a stone and heard it clatter onto the roof of some farm buildings which were 120 degrees and at least 200 yds in the other direction. It must have shot up near vertically and drifted down to the left onto the roof. It is easy for the inexperienced to get into trouble near occupied buildings. I wouldn't expect the HMR to produce a slow looping lob against the direction of travel like a .22, but I'd never rely on it not to bounce just because its a ballistic tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHIPPERS Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 get youself a sakoquad in 22lr and a 17hmr barrel than you have the best of both worlds,i did its the nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Surely it all depends on which part of the bullet strikes first. If the tip makes contact I'd be surprised if there was a full bullet ricochet, fragments or pieces of jacket whining off a short distance perhaps; but if the body of the bullet srikes a glancing blow without the tip making contact you would get an intact full bullet ricochet which would scream off like a meteor. This would account for ricochets off rushes or similarly stiff vegetation. I've never shot such ground but I don't doubt it can happen. An HMR may be quick by rimfire standards but compared to a CF its slow. A .222/.223 has another 1000/1200 fps on it. The HMR hasn't the speed to provide reliable fragmentation from anything other than a tip impact nor the weight and inertia to push soft obstructions (like rushes) aside. They certainly fly off stoney ground, as I've discovered, far more readily than the .222. The real danger with .22lr bounces is they're so erratic. I've had a bullet whine off a stone and heard it clatter onto the roof of some farm buildings which were 120 degrees and at least 200 yds in the other direction. It must have shot up near vertically and drifted down to the left onto the roof. It is easy for the inexperienced to get into trouble near occupied buildings. I wouldn't expect the HMR to produce a slow looping lob against the direction of travel like a .22, but I'd never rely on it not to bounce just because its a ballistic tip. Thats pretty much the score. I got poor fragmentation at around 150 + yards with the HMR and like you say 2400-2500fps is hardly screaming away for a 17-20 grn bullet - AT THE MUZZLE! No bullet type and no speed fixes ricochets only the shooters care can do that, i think experiance of an odd one teaches greater respect for what you are doing and the shots you will take Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The best answer is not to miss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 get youself a sakoquad in 22lr and a 17hmr barrel than you have the best of both worlds,i did its the nuts. How do you get on swapping the barrels over? Have you got a posh sighting system where you can dial in the .22LR and .17HMR settings? Granted they are very nice rifles but I wouldn't want to be ********* about with zeroing every time i switched calibre. Or does it just work like clockwork? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The best answer is not to miss! Quarry is never an adequate backstop, rushes and other objects in the bullets pathway cannot always be seen and pass through shots can still bounce. Faulty equipment happens, shooters do make mistakes. I have had bullets deflect and ricochet off quarry- my most scary ever entered a roe 140 grn 7mm bullet backstop was a largeish embankment well over the deers back, shot was heart angled downwards- bullet tumbled off a rib or something and exited at a crazy high angle well off to the right miss the embankment and skimmed across a dew covered field leaving a wake - good reason to consider backdrop as well as backstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 How do you get on swapping the barrels over? Have you got a posh sighting system where you can dial in the .22LR and .17HMR settings? Granted they are very nice rifles but I wouldn't want to be ********* about with zeroing every time i switched calibre. Or does it just work like clockwork? Cheers. Compare the costs, when i did you could buy two CZ 452's and have change to spare over the quad with two barrels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Compare the costs, when i did you could buy two CZ 452's and have change to spare over the quad with two barrels Done the obvious Kent, personally I couldn't do with ********* about changing barrels. I'd be interested if SHIPPERS has anything further to say though, but the Quad looks flawed in principal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfireboy Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Mate of mine had a sako quad with two barrels, now hes got two Sako quads. .17hmr and .22lr. Says it all really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweedledee Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Sold my 22 today.not at all sorry to see it go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I've got... 22 lr CZ511 (awesome semi on subs) 17HMR CZ 455 The 22lr I use when sound is an issue, I use it lamping and any time I dont need the extra range of the HMR. The 17 HMR covers all vermin shooting over 75yrds. They both have a place in my cabinet. and if you're looking at rifles.... cant go wrong with a CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Done the obvious Kent, personally I couldn't do with ********* about changing barrels. I'd be interested if SHIPPERS has anything further to say though, but the Quad looks flawed in principal. Can i say i am a massive Sako fan BUT the product has had a steady decrease in quality and a big rise in gimicry from its later ownership. The quad failed to impress me personally, besides i now realy feel that a .22lr and a .22 hornet in the hands of a handloader is a far better solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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