FAC Condition - Supervision

[grimey121uk]

Hi All,

 

Just had a visit tonight from Greater Manchester regarding my FAC application,

Basically I have applied for a 22LR and 17HMR which is fine however the I have been informed that the chiefs within the department insist on a supervisory condition on all new FAC grants.

I have heard of this for larger calibres but really didn't expect it on rimfires, its not a mega issue as I do know another ticket holder indirectly but it is a bit of a pain.

 

Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts?

 

The other thing which may take a while is the land, as its located outside of the Greater Manchester area they will need to liaise with Lancashire to get it checked.

Edited December 19, 2012 by grimey121uk

[Livefast123]

It seems to be coming in more and more now, I so glad I got my application in when I did and seemed to have missed the blanket application of mentoring. Personally I think that you have to make sure every shot is safe whether you are shooting a .22LR or a 300 Win Mag so they shouldn't really variate between calibers and having to find somebody to mentor you is a right PITA.

 

I had to get land checked in Dyfed-Powys which wasn't too bad actually, I only had to phone DP up once to see what was going on and it seemed that my home force hadn't sent the stuff through. Once that was sorted it was done within a few weeks.

 

If you have experience then I would write a list for the FEO to state why you don't need a mentor, they can only say no.

[Alycidon]

Join BASC if you are not already a member, then get the firearms dept to take it up with your licensing dept. What your FEO is asking for is NOT a legal requirement and should be resisted, BASC are good at this, the hate FEOs making teh law up to suit themselves. If you have god reason and a suitable place to use it then that is enough. They will want to check your land, make sure you are there, show them safe firing points, locations of footpaths, roads etc. Make sure your conversation during the inspection is heavily pointed toward safety. Get maps printed and give one to the inspecting officer.

 

A

Edited December 19, 2012 by Alycidon

[grimey121uk]

Thanks for the advice, I think I will wait for the certificate to be granted and then get in touch with BASC about removing the condition.

Fingers crossed they will be able to check the land soon, I don't want to be waiting months:(

Edited December 19, 2012 by grimey121uk

[ordnance]

Its a condition i have never heard of here.

[Redgum]

Join BASC if you are not already a member, then get the firearms dept to take it up with your licensing dept. What your FEO is asking for is NOT a legal requirement and should be resisted, BASC are good at this, the hate FEOs making teh law up to suit themselves. If you have god reason and a suitable place to use it then that is enough. They will want to check your land, make sure you are there, show them safe firing points, locations of footpaths, roads etc. Make sure your conversation during the inspection is heavily pointed toward safety. Get maps printed and give one to the inspecting officer.

 

A

Good luck with that one, I consulted BASC a few years back about the old Dsc1 and maybe mentoring as well from my force on 243. They were not very supportive, just told me to go and do a few paid stalks for some experience. Luckily I did my Dsc1 and that was that.

[cockercas]

Join BASC if you are not already a member, then get the firearms dept to take it up with your licensing dept. What your FEO is asking for is NOT a legal requirement.

 

A

Thanks for the advice, I think I will wait for the certificate to be granted and then get in touch with BASC about removing the condition.

correct about it not been a legal requirement, but once the condition is printed onto the certificate it is law and has to be adhered to and they dont have to remove it.

i dont think basc will help. imo its the way forward.

[grimey121uk]

Just had a bit of good news, due to some mix up over the name of the land on the records its known by 2 different names;

Short story is that its already cleared for .308, so my ticket will be in the post once its been rubber stamped:)

Edited December 19, 2012 by grimey121uk

[HDAV]

Thanks for the advice, I think I will wait for the certificate to be granted and then get in touch with BASC about removing the condition.

Fingers crossed they will be able to check the land soon, I don't want to be waiting months:(

 

I woukld suggest that is the worng way to go about it. as once accepted you are pretty stuck with it. Join BASC and write to the FLM asking what exactly they are requesting in terms of mentoring and how you go about finding a "suitable" mentor and how you are to be "mentored".

[bedwards1966]

I'd try BASC before it's granted, it's easier to get it changed now rather than have to convince them after they've sent and printed it.

[demonwolf444]

Wouldnt accept it. I have a brain, i know what is safe and within my limits on my land better than anyone. Mentoring would seriously cause issues for most and make it harder to achieve my job ( pest controll ) , is not a legal requirement and there fore via BASC i would be contesting this "requirement".

[jonesbach]

I had this condition on mine, 6mths mentored shooting. Personally don't think it's a bad thing. If its your first FAC then it's a different type of shooting and I do t see anything wrong with an experienced FAC holder showing you the ropes a little. Worked for me, now I have open on both my rifles.

[Vince Green]

The trouble with all these little "made up" rules and conditions is that they eventually become accepted as the norm and for that reason alone must always be opposed. Eventually in time they get written into the rulebooks.

I am sure the intention behind it is well motivated but its not the law

[Frenchieboy]

This sort of "condition" is one that seems to be coming up quite frequently nowadays! I have even come across 2 situations (One with West Yorkshire and one with Lancashire) where the authorities would not even issue a certificate until the applicant could show proof that they had been out with an "experienced shooter" and that in the "experienced shooter" opinion there was no reason why a certificate should not be issued!

I believe that this sort "a**e covering exercise" is going to become "the norm" in times to come - I hope that I am wrong!

[Scully]

Good luck with that one, I consulted BASC a few years back about the old Dsc1 and maybe mentoring as well from my force on 243. They were not very supportive, just told me to go and do a few paid stalks for some experience. Luckily I did my Dsc1 and that was that.

Have to agree with this.I consulted BASC on behalf of my nephew regarding a possible mentoring condition regarding his .22rf application.They said there was nothing they could do.

[David BASC]

Its not a question of we won’t help of course, its just that in some cases we can’t help .

 

As we all know the police can place conditions, over and above the statutory conditions, on licences.

 

Conditions, other than the statutory conditions prescribed by the 1998 Firearms Rules, are a mechanism for the Chief Constable to regulate the behaviour of a certificate holder where necessary, on a case by case basis. The original 1969 Home Office Guidance on Parliament’s intentions within the 1968 Firearms Act shows this.

 

Section 10.35 of the guidance says that the chief officer may impose extra conditions “if he feels that they are necessary to ensure effective operation of the firearms controls and minimise risk to public safety”.

 

Paragraph 10.33 of “Firearms Law Guidance to the Police” states;

 

“As the courts have held (R v Cambridge Crown Court ex parte Buckland, 1998) that there is no right of appeal against the imposition of conditions (as opposed to a refusal to grant or renew a certificate) chief officers will wish to be cautious in imposing conditions that might amount to a constructive refusal to grant or renew a certificate, that is additional conditions that would make possession or use so difficult as to be redundant in practice.”

 

The lack of an appeal procedure for a certificate holder aggrieved by a condition makes it incumbent upon Chief Constables to be reasonable in imposing conditions. Conditions must be competent in law and ‘Wednesbury reasonable’.

 

In his Judgement on the Buckland case, His Honour Judge J Haworth said: “That upon a grant the Chief Constable shall specify any conditions, subject to the test of Wednesbury reasonableness.”

 

Wednesbury unreasonableness is a standard used in assessing applications for judicial reviews of decisions by public authorities under English law. It applies to a decision, which is "So outrageous in its defiance of logic or accepted moral standards that no sensible person who had applied his mind to the question to be decided could have arrived at it." [Lord Diplock in Council of Civil Service Unions v Minister for the Civil Service (the GCHQ case 1983)].

 

Whether a decision falls within this category is a question that judges should be well equipped to answer. It is possible for a decision to fail a proportionality test without being Wednesbury unreasonable.

 

So, if it went to court, would a Judge say it was unreasonable for the police to ask for someone with no experience of firearms to be mentored in the first place? Probably not and that is what we are up against.

 

However, its important to ask, and get it confirmed from the licencing team, how long you should be mentored for before you can have that condition removed.

 

 

David

[andrewluke]

when i asked for help from basc when i applied for my fac the guy i spoke to at basc did not want to upset the Firearms Licensing Manager because his certificates were issued buy the same police force ,

 

i had problems when i applied for my fac,they said i needed mentors and i could not have a .22lr and a .17hmr as they were too similar,i kept phoning and stating facts/laws/rules and in the end got what i asked for ,

 

andrew

[David BASC]

''when i asked for help from basc when i applied for my fac the guy i spoke to at basc did not want to upset the Firearms Licensing Manager because his certificates were issued buy the same police force ,''

 

Realy????Who did you speak to then?

 

David

[andrewluke]

''when i asked for help from basc when i applied for my fac the guy i spoke to at basc did not want to upset the Firearms Licensing Manager because his certificates were issued buy the same police force ,''

 

Realy????Who did you speak to then?

 

David

 

i wont mention a name but you can see where i'm from and work out which force issues my certificate!

 

 

andrew

[David BASC]

Andrew,

 

Given that a high percentage of our staff live as well as work in Wales it does not help one bit!

 

With all due respect if you are going to make accusations against a member of BASC staff on a public forum you must be prepared to back them up.

 

David

Edited December 20, 2012 by David BASC

[andrewluke]

name='David BASC' timestamp='1356009584' post='2000034']

Andrew,

 

Given that a high percentage of our staff live as well as work in Wales it does not help one bit!

 

With all due respect if you are going to make accusations against a member of BASC staff on a public forum you must be prepared to back them up.

 

David

[/b]

who's making accusations,i've written what i was told,

andrew

[David BASC]

Andrew,

 

You have made an accusation of misconduct against a member of BASC staff and now refuse to give details … saying only that the BASC staff member lives in Wales- well that is a shadow you have now cast over about 40 people who work here…this I frankly find unacceptable, not least of all because you have done so on a public forum and with no other details, and are preventing that person from answering the accusations you have made.

 

I cannot believe for one moment that a member of BASC staff would refuse to help a member just in case it upset their own applecart - as such I am sure there is a misunderstanding.

 

If you have an issue then I am happy to work with you to try and resolve it, but casting accusations such as this is not the point of this thread and does not help the original post.

 

David

[The Essex Hunter]

Hi All,

 

Just had a visit tonight from Greater Manchester regarding my FAC application,

Basically I have applied for a 22LR and 17HMR which is fine however the I have been informed that the chiefs within the department insist on a supervisory condition on all new FAC grants.

I have heard of this for larger calibres but really didn't expect it on rimfires, its not a mega issue as I do know another ticket holder indirectly but it is a bit of a pain.

 

Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts?

 

The other thing which may take a while is the land, as its located outside of the Greater Manchester area they will need to liaise with Lancashire to get it checked.

 

As unfair as it seems mentoring conditions are here to stay so the best way is to deal with it.

There appears to be no time stipulations with a mentoring condition, I had one with my .243 and it was taken off in 3 months.

I dealt with it my self after asking my firearms department to explain it in a little more detail. 12 months on from that I applied to have the closed condition removed and my licence was opened up.

My advice for the original poster is to get out with your fellow shooter use up plenty of rounds and when he is happy with you just get him to write a letter and off you go.

It is not hard just you have to work with system in the right way.

 

 

 

TEH

[flynny]

 

 

As unfair as it seems mentoring conditions are here to stay so the best way is to deal with it.

There appears to be no time stipulations with a mentoring condition, I had one with my .243 and it was taken off in 3 months.

I dealt with it my self after asking my firearms department to explain it in a little more detail. 12 months on from that I applied to have the closed condition removed and my licence was opened up.

My advice for the original poster is to get out with your fellow shooter use up plenty of rounds and when he is happy with you just get him to write a letter and off you go.

It is not hard just you have to work with system in the right way.

 

Bang on, sound advice. I have given this advice to many and tickets have been opened up after I have written them a letter after 6 months of mentoring them,

 

 

 

TEH

[HDAV]

The issue is on what's grounds and potential repurcutions are there on the "mentor" ? What's to say how mentoring should be carried out? How often how long etc? It's like asking some one to tech you drive and then. Them being able to ok you to drive unsupervised its the reason a formal testing procedure is required for driving the instructor does not pass the applicant..... This way the certis issued on the basis of instruction from a mentor ie anyone with an FAC no skill level just the fact they haven't had a serious accident or lost their FAC ..... Can you mentor someone having held FAC for 1 year? 4 years? 2 months? Blind leading the blind........