Moving over to steel (for pigeons!)

[fieldwanderer]

Well, steel shot is cheaper (lead £79/20kg steel £65/20kg) so I've been considering moving over to steel (home loads).

 

I don't do any wild fowling so we'll skip that bit. All the guns I use are chrome lined and steel proofed.

 

So, my current load is 20.5gn AS, primer (sorry, can't think what at the moment), b&p wad for 28g and 28g shot.

 

So, if I were to find a wad that'll hold 28g of steel shot at the same height in the hull - can I leave everything else alone (apart from going up a shot size from 5lead to 4steel)? Obviously, I'd need to change the bushing to drop 28g of steel rather than lead.

 

If its not that simple, can you tell me what I need to do or point me at somewhere I can read all about it please?

[joknob]

Well, steel shot is cheaper (lead £79/20kg steel £65/20kg) so I've been considering moving over to steel (home loads).

 

I don't do any wild fowling so we'll skip that bit. All the guns I use are chrome lined and steel proofed.

 

So, my current load is 20.5gn AS, primer (sorry, can't think what at the moment), b&p wad for 28g and 28g shot.

 

So, if I were to find a wad that'll hold 28g of steel shot at the same height in the hull - can I leave everything else alone (apart from going up a shot size from 5lead to 4steel)? Obviously, I'd need to change the bushing to drop 28g of steel rather than lead.

 

If its not that simple, can you tell me what I need to do or point me at somewhere I can read all about it please?

no,you,ll blow yourself up,28gram of steel is totally different to 28 gram of lead ballisticly.get yourself a proven steel recipe. craig

[fieldwanderer]

Blow myself up with a thimble full of powder - erm, no. Maybe it'll bulge or burst a barrel and not do me any good in the process but lets not over-dramatize things eh?

 

This was a theory based question really, I would find a suitable recipe obviously but couldn't see why 28g of lead was any different to 28g of steel (apart from volume).

 

 

For a more fact based answer, the Lyman book proved to be my friend.

 

The gist being that; even in a fancy chrome lined barrel, you need a proper steel shot wad to keep the shot away from the barrel as much as possible (among other things). These wads being considerably thicker and heavier obviously alter pressures etc the same as a heavier load would.

 

But, whatever way I look at it, I'd need different wads and powder - therefore, I can't get the overall cost any cheaper than the lead and AS I'm using so that's the end of that idea.

[Lord Geordie]

Lead is more dense than steel there for you will not have the same stack for steel. Weight for weight you will have more steel balls than lead. There are steel specific powders out there and plenty of safe recipies to start off with.

 

As above! Stay safe and find a steel load recipie with correct.data

[Guest cookoff013]

er, actually you may blow yourself up if you did a like for like replacement. even at those small quantities. the efficiency of notro powders must not be thought lightly. when they get above 9000psi then things get a tad warm.

 

knock off the volume of steel, 28g is a big volume. especially for AS,

 

chrome lined barrels are to stop corrosion, nothing more.

use proper shot wad.

 

the irony is, to get a decent steel load yo`d need way more money for your powder, as the proper powders are slow, expensive and you use more of it.

thet will exceed the cost of savings just from shot.

 

1500fps loads #5

1300fps load #4

Edited January 10, 2013 by cookoff013

[pestcontrol1]

there is a recipe on vectans website for 24g steel load with AS powder i have tryed it but had to change the primer all was well in my auto but am still going to send some to proof house.

pc1

[Floating Chamber]

I have seen commercially loaded 24gram steel loaded with 'AS' in the early 1990s. The primer was a CX50.However, a D20 variant is now used with a CX2000.

 

A136 and PSB1 are used for 28 gram.

 

Pressure testing is essential.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Floating Chamber

[Catweazle]

My local gunshop, Teifi Valley Shooting Supplies, has blown shotgun barrels hanging on the walls. I was talking to the owner about one side by side barrel set, apparently the owner lost his arm.

 

Don't underestimate what a small amount of nitro powder can do.

[pestcontrol1]

I have seen commercially loaded 24gram steel loaded with 'AS' in the early 1990s. The primer was a CX50.However, a D20 variant is now used with a CX2000.

 

A136 and PSB1 are used for 28 gram.

 

Pressure testing is essential.

I have a dozen loaded up to drop off for testing. The primer was a M688 in the recipe that i got off vectans website the pressure was 590 with the m688 so i am not sure what it will be with a cx2000 so off for test they will go

[anser2]

^{I doubt if its worth loading steel in lighter loads. You can buy very good Gamebore 32 gr loads for £57 a slab. I use steel a lot these days for pigeons and find it very effective up to 40 yards perhaps a little further. It takes a little getting used to the difference in forward allowance compared to lead shells. To start with you miss birds infront as its a lot faster than most game loads. The most effective pellet sizes I have found are No4 and No3 is brilliant . The more I use steel the more i like it compared to lead. I was using it for driven pheasants over Christmas, nine 30-45 yard pheasants plus a woodcock and a wood pigeon for 14 shells is better than my usual lead average. Just one runner. The shell was RC atomic line 34 gr load , pellet size No 3.}

Edited January 10, 2013 by anser2

[Big Mat]

^{I doubt if its worth loading steel in lighter loads. You can buy very good Gamebore 32 gr loads for £57 a slab. I use steel a lot these days for pigeons and find it very effective up to 40 yards perhaps a little further. It takes a little getting used to the difference in forward allowance compared to lead shells. To start with you miss birds infront as its a lot faster than most game loads. The most effective pellet sizes I have found are No4 and No3 is brilliant . The more I use steel the more i like it compared to lead. I was using it for driven pheasants over Christmas, nine 30-45 yard pheasants plus a woodcock and a wood pigeon for 14 shells is better than my usual lead average. Just one runner. The shell was RC atomic line 34 gr load , pellet size No 3.}

 

Have you tried the Hull Solway steel 34g of 3s?

 

I got a box a while back but havent had the chance to use any yet except for one which i patterned! Gave a good even pattern through half choke!

[anser2]

Mat yes I have . Found them ok , but a 3 inch shell and not up to the 3 inch Gamebore or Remmington shells. The 34 gr RC shells ( Atomic Line ) are 2 3\4 inch cartridges so I can use them through my game gun. In recent years my shooting in bad light with a 3.5 inch Browning S\A has rapidly gome down hill so for inland duck shooting at dusk the RCs have become my preffered shell as I can use then in my S\S which I find I can shoot better with in low light conditions.

 

They are a hell of a job to get hold of , but they are by far the best steel 2 3\4 inch shells I have used so far.

[Catamong]

I use steel loads regularly for Pigeons, I always go for 32gr 4's, the Gamebore load is excellent, but they don't kill as well as an equivalent 32g lead load.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to go down to a 28g steel load, in my opinion you'd get far too many runners and pricked birds.

 

Cat.

[Guest cookoff013]

I use steel loads regularly for Pigeons, I always go for 32gr 4's, the Gamebore load is excellent, but they don't kill as well as an equivalent 32g lead load.

I certainly wouldn't want to go down to a 28g steel load, in my opinion you'd get far too many runners and pricked birds. Cat.

 

cat,

there are some here that homeload 24g #5 for pigeons. i`m not talking about the normal slow comercial shells. i can produce an equivalent shell but it will end up 1200fps just like every other bland steel load available here. or, i can homeload a 24g rocket of a cartridge, that performs beyond what it should. and still be within the realms of "just worth it"

if by some small miracle you get paid a hefty sum for steel shot birds, then homeloading really comes into its own.

in the grand scheme of cartridges 28g of steel shot is a huge volume to move, even moving it fast is an issue. the amount of pellets shouldnt be undervalued in the 24g loads as often they can produce as good as patterns percentage wise, compared to the 32g steel equivalent.

 

as a dedicated decoy load, even 24g steel #6s would do. as a bare minimum. as long as the speed was 1500fps.

realisticly, thats how fast i`d like to push it without going fully expensive.

the cost of these reloads slightly powder heavy see-saws in costs, what you spend on powder, you wont on steel shot, where as if you want the 32g loads then you`d either be punished by, slow speeds, and or expensive powder.

 

24g loads just tip the scales in the speed stakes.

[joknob]

cat,

there are some here that homeload 24g #5 for pigeons. i`m not talking about the normal slow comercial shells. i can produce an equivalent shell but it will end up 1200fps just like every other bland steel load available here. or, i can homeload a 24g rocket of a cartridge, that performs beyond what it should. and still be within the realms of "just worth it"

if by some small miracle you get paid a hefty sum for steel shot birds, then homeloading really comes into its own.

in the grand scheme of cartridges 28g of steel shot is a huge volume to move, even moving it fast is an issue. the amount of pellets shouldnt be undervalued in the 24g loads as often they can produce as good as patterns percentage wise, compared to the 32g steel equivalent.

 

as a dedicated decoy load, even 24g steel #6s would do. as a bare minimum. as long as the speed was 1500fps.

realisticly, thats how fast i`d like to push it without going fully expensive.

the cost of these reloads slightly powder heavy see-saws in costs, what you spend on powder, you wont on steel shot, where as if you want the 32g loads then you`d either be punished by, slow speeds, and or expensive powder.

 

24g loads just tip the scales in the speed stakes.

ive been using home rolled 24.5 gram 3.5mm steel in a 65mm case for rooks and pigeons,nothing will touch them and i even use them on the duck.

[Catamong]

ive been using home rolled 24.5 gram 3.5mm steel in a 65mm case for rooks and pigeons,nothing will touch them and i even use them on the duck.

 

Well, if they perform that well, why do the manufacturers bother with the more costly and heavier 32g loads, these light loads should be commercially available, but they're not..?

 

I'm no expert on ballistics, but I do know a little bit about pigeon shooting, and my view is that you need more, not less pellets in a steel load to guarantee a kill.

 

Cat.

[Continental Shooter]

Hi Cat,

 

The point here is that like for like a 24gr steel load will hold more pellets than it's lead sister. If I am not mistaken (am I thinking USA sizes here?? ), there are 315 pellets #6 on 1oz steel and 225 on 1oz lead giving steel 90 more pellets to a steel shell.

 

The problem highlighted here is that having more pellets to push, on a like for like loads (i.e 24 grams), if you want to save money you have to reduce power and the shell will result significantly slow, othewise if you want a fast shell will be significantly more expensive.

 

Thanks,

 

Franco

[Guest cookoff013]

Well, if they perform that well, why do the manufacturers bother with the more costly and heavier 32g loads, these light loads should be commercially available, but they're not..?

 

I'm no expert on ballistics, but I do know a little bit about pigeon shooting, and my view is that you need more, not less pellets in a steel load to guarantee a kill.

 

Cat.

the manufacturers must conform to the CIP regulations for cartridges. one of the limitations of 12-70mm standard loads is there is a speed limit of 1400fps.

they really stick to this. thats why steel is slow.

[pestcontrol1]

I compaired home loaded 24g and factory 24g steel shells at clays the other day and the resuilts were totaly one sided. The factory shells needed more than twice the lead compaired to the home loads and the hits on the clays were just onesided factory loads broke clays the home loads powdered everything. I will be trying them on pigeons next week so i will keep you all posted.

pc1

[Guest cookoff013]

I compaired home loaded 24g and factory 24g steel shells at clays the other day and the resuilts were totaly one sided. The factory shells needed more than twice the lead compaired to the home loads and the hits on the clays were just onesided factory loads broke clays the home loads powdered everything. I will be trying them on pigeons next week so i will keep you all posted.

pc1

what 24g homeloads?

the wad i believe is the most important part. i do like the csd078 for general loading, but the 24g LBC wad is just better in all aspects. it holds pressure better for the same charge, gets slightly more speed, thicker, can use bigger shotsizes

downside is, its slightly longer.

 

cook.

[pestcontrol1]

some that i loaded up with the recipe that your kind self sent and a recipe that another kind chap sent me both very good loads. And a hand full of some that i loaded up with AS which are off for test they seemed quick and worked wel on the clays. I am waiting for some 24g LBC wads to come in at c&g but i did cut a few bigger LBC wads down to try them out but not had chance as yet

[Guest cookoff013]

i would advise against cutting down any lbc wads. the issue here being that the LBC wad has a cushion leg section and the others dont have that.

so would respond differently.. upon firing.

 

thats why wads are not interchangable, because some are more efficuent / tighter sealing. so for each wad has its own charicteristics...

moving from a highpressure inneficient wad to an efficient sealing wad will cause an incident,

 

allow me to give you an example, the ranger plus wad is an old wad designed in the 70s and has a poor gas seal and obturator section is smaller, this was to allow the older faster powders bleed off some pressure.

whereas these new wads squeese all the performance out of the powdercharge,

[hawkfanz]

eleys new lightning steel is above the cip limit,there rated at 1500 fps and available in no5 as well as the bigger shot.

[Guest cookoff013]

eleys new lightning steel is above the cip limit,there rated at 1500 fps and available in no5 as well as the bigger shot.

yeah, i like the wording "rated" "1500fps" "no# 5 shot"

 

in the grand scheme of things, shooting such TINY shot at high velocity is not great. it only gains small amounts of additional energy, even over 1300fps loads. but at 40 yards, it isnt going to be anything to write home about....

it states 1640fps, so in reality gets 1500fps i`d guess. i wouldnt want to be shooting too many of these. would be much more sensible in 4s etc...

[pestcontrol1]

i would advise against cutting down any lbc wads. the issue here being that the LBC wad has a cushion leg section and the others dont have that.

so would respond differently.. upon firing.

 

thats why wads are not interchangable, because some are more efficuent / tighter sealing. so for each wad has its own charicteristics...

moving from a highpressure inneficient wad to an efficient sealing wad will cause an incident,

 

allow me to give you an example, the ranger plus wad is an old wad designed in the 70s and has a poor gas seal and obturator section is smaller, this was to allow the older faster powders bleed off some pressure.

whereas these new wads squeese all the performance out of the powdercharge,

Hi Cookoff the lbc wads dont have any cushon legs on them that i can see. The only ones that i can see that do are the lbc 43 it was a lbc 48 that i cut down to fit the shot but i am with you about the presure side of things with other wads.