Pump Club

[Kalahari]

Davey and Co http://www.gunstar.co.uk/view-trader/davey-son/1274/Shotguns-for-sale#ads have the holy grail of pumps the BPS in stock. Go on lads and lasses you know you want/need one.

 

 

David.

[impala59]

Try www.stevespages.com/page7b most manuals listed there

[impala59]

Hi all, here is some info that I put together from several sources and experience which may be of interest. (together with some of my biased opinions!)

Ithaca Model 37 v Browning BPS

What are the differences between the American-made Ithaca Model 37 Featherlight and the Japanese-made (Miroku) Browning BPS models? Firstly, the reason for comparison is the common denominator, which is the J M Browning designed, bottom load and eject as introduced on the Remington Model 17 which became the Ithaca Model 37 when the original patents expired. Interestingly, Remington moved its own development into the smooth, side ejecting Model 31, which in turn evolved into the best-selling 870.

With the exception of the bottom ejection feature, the BPS is different from the Ithaca Model 37 in several ways. The BPS trigger group is pinned into place, the slide release is on the left rear of the receiver. The M37 trigger assembly slides in to the rear of the receiver and is held by a screw. The cartridge carrier/lifter in the BPS pivots on a drift pin whereas on the M37 it is located with screws and adjacent lock screws. Pre 1970 M37’s could “slam fire”, that is, by holding the trigger, the gun would fire when the action was moved forward. Later models have a disconnector to prevent this.

The Browning BPS has a plain receiver, the standard models lacking any engraving. Current Ithaca M37s have machine-cut engraving.

The BPS comes in 10 gauge and 12 gauge. The Ithaca M37 comes in 12, 16, 20, and 28 gauge. Ithaca Featherlight models are all-steel, but weigh about 12 ounces less than their BPS counterparts. For an even lighter gun you can opt for the plain-barrelled versions of the Ithaca M37 that reduces significantly the barrel weight. Ithaca also offers the alloy-receiver “Ultralight” M37 in 12 and 20 gauge that is even lighter still.

The safety on a BPS is an ambidextrous thumb safety. The safety on an Ithaca M37 is at the back of the trigger guard and is reversible for left-handed shooters. The BPS has a raised rib, the M37 has a ventilated rib closer to the barrel.

The lighter steel Ithaca M37 receiver is machine-engraved, the slide release is at the front of the trigger guard, with the safety at the rear. The M37 forearm is lighter and slimmer than that on the BPS. The current Ithaca M37 has Ithaca's solderless barrel system, with no heat applied to the barrel after machining. The lugs are integral, so they need not be applied later on in the process, and no warping of the barrel can occur. The ventilated rib on an Ithaca is easy to replace, being held on by just one screw.

The barrel on an Ithaca Model 37 is threaded into the receiver, with both the receiver and the barrel machined with interrupted threads. This solidifies the assembly, with no rattle or twisting possible. Quality target rifles use this method of barrel attachment. Several Ithaca M37s come with drilled and tapped receivers for scope or other optics. Threaded steel into threaded steel makes for a more rigid assembly than a slip-fit approach.

Most pumps, including the BPS, and most autoloaders today have “barrel extensions” on the barrel that go into the receiver. As a result, particularly with a slide action, you can get unwanted barrel movement. You can also get wear from the barrel extension pounding itself into the receiver with every shot. The reason for a barrel extension in the first place is to reduce cost. Machining interrupted threads into the barrel and in the receiver is a costly and precise process.

Positive engagement by threads ensures precise alignment, alignment not possible with a slip fit array. To attempt to compensate for misaligned or slightly eccentric barrels, “dual action bars” have been used in the BPS. Ironically, the slickest slide actions ever made, including the venerable old Winchester Model 12 and the Model 37 have only one action bar. To partially compensate for the twisting and binding of the barrel, the BPS has a barrel tab that protrudes from the top of barrel extension and slips into the top of the receiver.

BPS models use the familiar Invector and Invector Plus choke tubes. Ithaca barrels use Ithaca-Briley chokes, and have elongated forcing cones. The Ithaca M37 shotguns have slimmer forearms than the BPS and come with ground Pachmayr Decelerator pads rather than hard plastic butt plates.

Most pump actions today have plastic or aluminium trigger guards whereas the Ithaca remains all-steel.

The BPS bolt locks onto the barrel extension, the Ithaca bolt locks directly into the steel receiver.

The key to the Ithaca's durability and light weight comes not from using weaker materials or design changes just to cut machining cost, but rather using close fitting all-steel components that are shaped and sculpted to reduce weight without sacrificing the strength of the metal or original design.

Strip down of both these shotguns can be tricky with the M37 bolt removal a very interesting procedure. There are many YouTube clips to help you with both guns

The Browning/Miroku BPS, introduced in 1977, is a good looking and smooth shooting shotgun although the trigger can be a touch heavy at around 6-7 lbs. The Ithaca Model 37 is a piece of firearms history that in my opinion, just keeps getting better. They are half-brothers with a common parentage, history and ancestry. Both are suitable for a variety of uses, solid and dependable shotguns, great fun on clays too! (and you’re not chucking empty cartridges into the shooter on your right!) Two shotguns that many people compare for their one common feature but two very different guns nonetheless, I love them both!

 

​

[photon]

Heads up

Reminton 870 synthetic black stocks and forend on e-bay, i belive these are the police version with the smaller forend and supercell recoil pad.

Worth a look.

 

No affiliation just a way to spruce up a tired gun or save your nice woodwork.

[throdgrain]

This really makes me want to go and buy both of them

[impala59]

Picking up my BPS Saturday, M37 may take a little longer hope some enterprising dealer starts getting them to the UK

 

This really makes me want to go and buy both of them

[Markbrowning]

I have both

[impala59]

I have both

 

Top Man! I had both about 10 years ago and unfortunately let everything go when my domestic situation went FUBAR. Hope you agreed my synopsis of these great guns and they give you great pleasure

[ChAoS]

Pre 1970 M37s could slam fire, that is, by holding the trigger, the gun would fire when the action was moved forward. Later models have a disconnector to prevent this.

In fact, M37s were *designed* to slam-fire. In the later guns, Ithaca appear to have removed the stub on the side of the hammer that engages with the extra sear.

 

This trigger is from a slam-firing, early-eightes M&P DSPS. Note the extra sear holding the hammer back:

 

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

Edited November 5, 2015 by ChAoS

[impala59]

Thanks Mark, great pic by the way! I guess Ithaca may have seen possible litigation issues with slam fire? I believe the Winchester Model 12 had this feature too. As a trench clearer with 00 buck you could see the logic I suppose.

[ChAoS]

I guess Ithaca may have seen possible litigation issues with slam fire?

I wouldn't be surprised...

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

[impala59]

Had a day off with 'flu and rather than watch TV, went back to page 1 of "pump club" for some entertaining reading. I was not disappointed! However, I discovered that I may have an affliction! It seems that the enjoyment of pump guns can become obsessive and particularly in relation to Ithaca model 37s,Remington Wingmasters and Mossies. I'm done for! I need a 37 Help!

[rjimmer]

I had not heard about slam fire until just before I sold my Model 37 a month ago. It seemed to be possible but I didn't try it loaded. If stevethejeep, who bought it, reads this, he might confirm one way or the other. It was bought new in the 70s.

[Scully]

Winchester Model 12's will slam fire. I know this because I've owned two. The model 1897 will also I believe, but have never owned one to try it.

[impala59]

Winchester Model 12's will slam fire. I know this because I've owned two. The model 1897 will also I believe, but have never owned one to try it.

 

So I understand, I must confess that until being put right by Mark/ChAoS, I always thought, and despite previously owning one, that slam fire on the M37 was a happy by-product of a very simple JMB design. However, now I realise that if the hammer simply followed the returning bolt, there would probably not be enough inertia to hit the firing pin successfully every time. The additional sear in Marks photo just shows what genius JMB and his colleagues were with the timing of the lock. Its no wonder the basic same gun is still made to this day

[ChAoS]

While we're talking of the M37's slam-fire mechanism, I suppose I might as well document a slight "gotchya".

 

The second sear is formed on the top part of the slide stop. The slide stop is what holds the bolt carrier in battery and is also what the "action release" is formed on:

 

 

If you have a slam-firing M37 - that is, one that still *has* its hammer spur intact - a new slide stop will stop the gun from cocking until the second sear surface is created. If you don't form this surface, the hammer cannot fully engage:

 

 

Just thought I'd mention that.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

 

P.S. If you're wondering *why* I'd want a new slide stop, it's because my gun is a bit sloppy when closed and, if one pulls back on the fore-end, it won't fire. I'm assuming that the (very) worn end of the slide stop is allowing too much slack. Hence, I've bought a new part. (In fact, in view of the above gotchya, I've chosen to get the *old* slide stop extended to see if that fixes the problem.)

[impala59]

Mark, This is getting technical! But very educational nonetheless! I think you will have to sell me a 37 so that I can fully understand !!!

[a303]

My M37 slam fires. Mucho entertainment.

[impala59]

My M37 slam fires. Mucho entertainment.

 

So cruel !

[impala59]

On a happier note, the BPS shoots great, the raised rib seems just perfect for me!

Can't seem to add photo though, I will persevere

[impala59]

Hope pic works

[ChAoS]

I think you will have to sell me a 37

Um, generally speaking, one holds *on* to one's M37s. At least, *I* do.

 

By the way, I wouldn't mind acquiring a BPS. I've seen someone using one and read about 'em on the Yank forums but I think I'd like to get one just in order to "compare and contrast" it with the Ithaca.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

[Rimfireboy]

Hope pic works//<![CDATA[

(function(){var g=this,h=function(b,d){var a=b.split("."),c=g;a[0]in c||!c.execScript||c.execScript("var "+a[0]);for(var e;a.length&&(e=a.shift());)a.length||void 0===d?c[e]?c=c[e]:c=c[e]={}:c[e]=d};var l=function(b){var d=b.length;if(0<d){for(var a=Array(d),c=0;c<d;c++)a[c]=b[c];return a}return[]};var m=function(b){var d=window;if(d.addEventListener)d.addEventListener("load",b,!1);else if(d.attachEvent)d.attachEvent("onload",b);else{var a=d.onload;d.onload=function(){b.call(this);a&&a.call(this)}}};var n,p=function(b,d,a,c,e){this.f=b;this.h=d;this.i=a;this.c=e;this.e={height:window.innerHeight||document.documentElement.clientHeight||document.body.clientHeight,width:window.innerWidth||document.documentElement.clientWidth||document.body.clientWidth};this.g=c;this.b={};this.a=[];this.d={}},q=function(b,d){var a,c,e=d.getAttribute("pagespeed_url_hash");if(a=e&&!(e in b.d))if(0>=d.offsetWidth&&0>=d.offsetHeight)a=!1;else{c=d.getBoundingClientRect();var f=document.body;a=c.top+("pageYOffset"in window?window.pageYOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollTop);c=c.left+("pageXOffset"in window?window.pageXOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollLeft);f=a.toString()+","+c;b.b.hasOwnProperty(f)?a=!1:(b.b[f]=!0,a=a<=b.e.height&&c<=b.e.width)}a&&(b.a.push(e),b.d[e]=!0)};p.prototype.checkImageForCriticality=function(b){b.getBoundingClientRect&&q(this,b)};h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkImageForCriticality",function(b){n.checkImageForCriticality(b)});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkCriticalImages",function(){r(n)});var r=function(b){b.b={};for(var d=["IMG","INPUT"],a=[],c=0;c<d.length;++c)a=a.concat(l(document.getElementsByTagName(d[c])));if(0!=a.length&&a[0].getBoundingClientRect){for(c=0;d=a[c];++c)q(b,d);a="oh="+b.i;b.c&&(a+="&n="+b.c);if(d=0!=b.a.length)for(a+="&ci="+encodeURIComponent(b.a[0]),c=1;c<b.a.length;++c){var e=","+encodeURIComponent(b.a[c]);131072>=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e)}b.g&&(e="&rd="+encodeURIComponent(JSON.stringify(s())),131072>=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e),d=!0);t=a;if(d){c=b.f;b=b.h;var f;if(window.XMLHttpRequest)f=new XMLHttpRequest;else if(window.ActiveXObject)try{f=new ActiveXObject("Msxml2.XMLHTTP")}catch(k){try{f=new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")}catch(u){}}f&&(f.open("POST",c+(-1==c.indexOf("?")?"?":"&")+"url="+encodeURIComponent(b)),f.setRequestHeader("Content-Type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded"),f.send(a))}}},s=function(){var b={},d=document.getElementsByTagName("IMG");if(0==d.length)return{};var a=d[0];if(!("naturalWidth"in a&&"naturalHeight"in a))return{};for(var c=0;a=d[c];++c){var e=a.getAttribute("pagespeed_url_hash");e&&(!(e in b)&&0<a.width&&0<a.height&&0<a.naturalWidth&&0<a.naturalHeight||e in b&&a.width>=b[e].k&&a.height>=b[e].j)&&(b[e]={rw:a.width,rh:a.height,ow:a.naturalWidth,oh:a.naturalHeight})}return b},t="";h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.getBeaconData",function(){return t});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run",function(b,d,a,c,e,f){var k=new p(b,d,a,e,f);n=k;c&&m(function(){window.setTimeout(function(){r(k)},0)})});})();pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run('/mod_pagespeed_beacon','http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=ajax&section=topics&do=quote&t=236687&p=2938100&md5check=e9a8676960d0b9ccce7a27837f18bf45&isRte=1,B6nXayd9mu,true,false,Ekmt8JC_d8Y');

//]]>DSC_0004b.jpg

Looks nice fella. What sort of price are the bps in good nick?

[Kalahari]

Davey and son in yorkshire will sell you a new one at a very reasonable price.

 

David.

[impala59]

Um, generally speaking, one holds *on* to one's M37s. At least, *I* do.

 

By the way, I wouldn't mind acquiring a BPS. I've seen someone using one and read about 'em on the Yank forums but I think I'd like to get one just in order to "compare and contrast" it with the Ithaca.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

Mark, yes of course, having read your previous posts, of course I respect that, just trying for some sympathy !

BPS seem about as uncommon on the market as 37's, I pushed the boat out and got this brand spanking from Daveys of Scarborough at £595 not cheap but seems to have good build quality and feels really nice in the shoulder, very natural pointing, for me at least. Slightly better photo with Hatstand semi for comparison. Rimfreboy, not sure of used values, but as its a Browning/Miroku I hope it retains value! I think this ones a keeper! PS Mark there's a nice Mag 10 on Guntrader, I can't afford at the moment but as a stand out Ithaca for your collection???