7.5 cartridges

[Amazed]

what you need to watch is the the amount of atimony in the lead using trap carts. cheaper ones for pigeons generally better as the lead is softer. trap carts of 4% and 5% antimony or above, are a waiste of time for wing shooting, as the lead is so hard you just keep drilling the quarry and not killing it cleanly. Really you should use game carts that are designed for the job.

 

I do believe that this is the RSPBS view on the subject also.

[Hamster]

I do believe that this is the RSPBS view on the subject also.

 

And they'd be ballistics experts wouldn't they. There is not a shred of truth to this nonsense, place a size 6/7 pellet in the palm of your hand and then try and imagine it having mushroomed in size to create more shock effect on the quarry like in bullets and deer, (I'm chuckling uncontrollably at the mere thought that some could believe the two are similar) .

 

Alternatively retrieve a so called soft pellet (whatever that is) from a pigeon and compare to one from a clay shell, there'll be next to no difference and certainly nowhere near the amount that would make a difference to the demise of the quarry. If anything you could argue and I DO, that a fast trap type shell will cause more damage because it penetrates better, not because the lead is harder but because they're faster.

[Guest cookoff013]

And they'd be ballistics experts wouldn't they. There is not a shred of truth to this nonsense, place a size 6/7 pellet in the palm of your hand and then try and imagine it having mushroomed in size to create more shock effect on the quarry like in bullets and deer, (I'm chuckling uncontrollably at the mere thought that some could believe the two are similar) .

 

Alternatively retrieve a so called soft pellet (whatever that is) from a pigeon and compare to one from a clay shell, there'll be next to no difference and certainly nowhere near the amount that would make a difference to the demise of the quarry. If anything you could argue and I DO, that a fast trap type shell will cause more damage because it penetrates better, not because the lead is harder but because they're faster.

fast shells use high % antimony to stop crushing the lead on firing setback. these are all branded types like "diomond shot" or 5% competition hardened shot. (http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/sovereignfibre.htm) that shell in a 6.5 should be ideal for shooting birds. its not short of speed or shotsize. but they are just more expensive than a traditional 32g load. i just checked, these loads are £1 more expensive per 1000 on "a certain cartridge website" the one that sells just cartridges.

 

i`ll take a #6 at 1300fps anyday over 7s at 1500fps.

[Hamster]

 

i`ll take a #6 at 1300fps anyday over 7s at 1500fps.

 

After 30 years pigeon shooting I'd take the 7's at either speed, Archie Coates recommended 7 shot too. Better coverage and at decoying ranges it has more than enough oomph left.

[chrispti]

 

 

After 30 years pigeon shooting I'd take the 7's at either speed, Archie Coates recommended 7 shot too. Better coverage and at decoying ranges it has more than enough oomph left.

 

That's just it, they are good enough for decoying birds.

 

I prefer 6s or 5s as I get bored stiff shooting 30yrd decoying pigeons, I much prefer the more challenging shots so I use a suitable cartridge for killing birds at the ranges I shoot at.

[motty]

That's just it, they are good enough for decoying birds.

 

I prefer 6s or 5s as I get bored stiff shooting 30yrd decoying pigeons, I much prefer the more challenging shots so I use a suitable cartridge for killing birds at the ranges I shoot at.

Maybe it can become boring shooting birds at 30 yards. That's why i'm glad the cartridges i use (Mainly English 7 size) are capable of taking down the odd 50 yarder.

[chrispti]

(Mainly English 7 size) are capable of taking down the odd 50 yarder.

 

Not my findings mate

Edited February 28, 2013 by chrispti

[Ears]

so thats why nearly all game carts are made with lead, of an antimony below 4% then. Cause it obvisolsly does not make any difference then and gamebore ,express lylevale, Hull, etc obviously have no idea of what they are doing then. there are some real fools on here these days. shoot what you like if you know better. Recormended pigeon loads are 5 shot or 6 and 7 shot anitimony below 4%. trap shells are for trap or sporting hardened lead does not deform so quickly on impacting quarry fact. causes runners more quarry is wounded. at close range it not gonna make alot of difference as most of the pattern is is direct on the quarry. at longer ranges this is certainly not the case.

[karpman]

so thats why nearly all game carts are made with lead, of an antimony below 4% then. Cause it obvisolsly does not make any difference then and gamebore ,express lylevale, Hull, etc obviously have no idea of what they are doing then. there are some real fools on here these days. shoot what you like if you know better. Recormended pigeon loads are 5 shot or 6 and 7 shot anitimony below 4%. trap shells are for trap or sporting hardened lead does not deform so quickly on impacting quarry fact. causes runners more quarry is wounded. at close range it not gonna make alot of difference as most of the pattern is is direct on the quarry. at longer ranges this is certainly not the case.

 

More runners, in your mind maybe. On paper maybe. In practice its quite simply not the case for me.

 

Noticed no difference in the field at all and have shot plenty of each. Show me some facts on how the hardness of the lead affects kill death ratio.

 

Karpman

[Ears]

Phone a cartridge company, they will explain it for you.

[Hamster]

so thats why nearly all game carts are made with lead, of an antimony below 4% then. Cause it obvisolsly does not make any difference then and gamebore ,express lylevale, Hull, etc obviously have no idea of what they are doing then. there are some real fools on here these days. shoot what you like if you know better. Recormended pigeon loads are 5 shot or 6 and 7 shot anitimony below 4%. trap shells are for trap or sporting hardened lead does not deform so quickly on impacting quarry fact. causes runners more quarry is wounded. at close range it not gonna make alot of difference as most of the pattern is is direct on the quarry. at longer ranges this is certainly not the case.

 

On the contrary, the manufacturers know EXACTLY what they're doing taking more money from fools who think partridge pictures and cheaper soft lead make a better game shell. Who the hell decided that soft pellets deforms on impact with a bird, the manufacturer, you or perhaps Mr. Bull ? :lol:

 

Bullets used on deer can be made to give controlled expansion leading to more instant dumping of energy into the quarry, no argument there, but this is with accurate rifles where the shooter can choose where to place the shot time after time. NOT so with scatter guns, you may or may not hit the pigeon with 2/3/6/ or 7 pellets anywhere on its anatomy. If you really think tiny shot deforming has any tangible effect on killing the quarry given that you have absolutely no way of knowing where in the body your shot is going to hit anyway then you're easily led.

 

There are thousands of shooters who use clay shells to kill small game and they get no more runners than the next guy, arguably less in fact because they tend to be more knowledgeable and better shots in the first place. The defining criteria is shot size, just make sure you don't go silly small. I personally have always found a trap type size 7 shell to be superior to game loads of size 6 for pigeon shooting.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Hamster

[karpman]

Phone a cartridge company, they will explain it for you.

Yes but can they provide real evidence. Of course they want me using 5s and 6s why wouldn't they? I'm talking from being out there using these carts.

 

But what ever floats your boat, you can't provide any of these facts then.

 

Karpman

[Hamster]

Phone a cartridge company, they will explain it for you.

 

Of course they will, that's just the point. Don't listen to Hamster, what you need is these foooibre ones with nice soft lead which we couldn't get away with loading into even dirt cheap clay loads and some stunning pheasant pictures for free with each box. Oh that'll be £277 a thou cos they're called Chargot you know, silent T by the way.

[karpman]

 

 

Of course they will, that's just the point. Don't listen to Hamster, what you need is these foooibre ones with nice soft lead which we couldn't get away with loading into even dirt cheap clay loads and some stunning pheasant pictures for free with each box. Oh that'll be £277 a thou cos they're called Chargot you know, silent T by the way.

Lol mate you would make a splendid rep for Lyvale.

 

Karpman

[sitsinhedges]

I would expect a higher antimony shot to hold a better pattern and kill better.

 

Still think no6 beats anything smaller by a margin though.

 

People buy 7 1/2s cos they're cheap and the buyers are too tight to pay for a proper cartridge.

[wymberley]

 

There are thousands of shooters who use clay shells to kill small game and they get no more runners than the next guy, arguably less in fact because they tend to be more knowledgeable and better shots in the first place.

 

I wish you'd said that about 55 years ago. It's a bit late finding out now where I've been going wrong in all that time. Thick as two short planks and can't hit 'owt. Damn me, turns out that my PT teacher was right after all.

[Hamster]

I would expect a higher antimony shot to hold a better pattern and kill better.

 

Still think no6 beats anything smaller by a margin though.

 

People buy 7 1/2s cos they're cheap and the buyers are too tight to pay for a proper cartridge.

 

It's a funny one this because I have tried and tried again with 6's, in all sorts of shot weights too but they just seem to lack the coverage you get with a 7 - 7.5's are good too but I wouldn't advise their use out of choice. The point is though whichever size you happen to like, needn't be soft...............or named after an estate...............or be packaged in hunting scene boxes.............or expensive.

[karpman]

I would expect a higher antimony shot to hold a better pattern and kill better.

 

Still think no6 beats anything smaller by a margin though.

 

People buy 7 1/2s cos they're cheap and the buyers are too tight to pay for a proper cartridge.

I buy them because I don't like paying a premium for something that performs no better.

 

Same reason why I don't run my car on super unleaded. Maybe a touch of the placebo effect going here.

 

Karpman

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well I use Hull Soverign 28 gramme 7 1/2s for all the clays I shoot but I up the game to a 30 gramme 6 for the pigeons, rabbits, pheasants and foxes.

[Hamster]

I buy them because I don't like paying a premium for something that performs no better.

 

Same reason why I don't run my car on super unleaded. Maybe a touch of the placebo effect going here.

 

Karpman

 

Spot on, if all the shell manufacturers in the land were to simply load the appropriate shot size and weight into their game loads with all else being comparable to their clay range, I'd put any money you like not a single bird would go injured more than it did before. The reason they don't is simple marketing, you can't do that and charge £60 quid a thou more just because the chap is dressed in a tweed.

[karpman]

Quite simply not enough bang for the buck on pigeons with 6's for me. Pun absolutely intended lol.

 

Karpman

[Guest cookoff013]

I would expect a higher antimony shot to hold a better pattern and kill better.

 

Still think no6 beats anything smaller by a margin though.

 

People buy 7 1/2s cos they're cheap and the buyers are too tight to pay for a proper cartridge.

spot on. the difference in antimony will greatly affect the pattern. even at the reduced speeds that pigeon loads have. in my proof tests most shells can vary 25m/s thats not really that bad comparitively. when compared to premium game loads of 1400fps, where as the pigeon loads are going to operate at the same performance. pigeon loads are cheaper because they have 1 shotsize, the minimum requirement no frills small game shell. the comparisons of super soft #6 lead and super hard #7.5s cant be more different. one retains more energy down range, just due to the size. the other is like the equivalent to 8s (equivalent via shotcount) or so ! ive the shotsize charts athome with the energy retention at 40 yards. i`ll dig them up.

you can actually kill birds with 7.5s but why, when there are unknown factors in those shells, sometimes they dont have 7.5 in them they have anything but 7.5s.

 

some foreign shells dont even contain the right amount of shot or shotsize. and those were premium type shells. !!!

 

as for the fact they are boxed in "game scene" boxes is irrelevent, the packaging cost is the same. they can be named after anything, estate or not, it doesnt matter. its whats in the hull that matters.

 

currently we are in the phase of economysing loads such as 29g loads instead of 30g loads that 1g diference is nothing. its less than 5% variation and is acceptable for that loading. why didnt they go the whole hog and re-label a 28g load.

why arnt all pigeon loads avaialble in 7s? makes you wonder.... if 7s are that good.

 

the relationship is distance. 6s get there with more speed / energy.

[The Essex Hunter]

I use 7.5 28gm Ely First in Fibre…a mate uses 30 gram 6’s in Fibre

We kill and miss around the same…

I have shot more birds these last 3 years for a number of reasons including changing my decoying habits, using less choke, watching where birds are feeding and using that info to ask farmers to go and shoot.

With the term pricked bird we all do it and from where I see it the reasons are there was not enough lead in the right place.

The trick is to work out where you can kill the birds to suit your shooting technique.

Pigeon shooting is a sport which people can start up with very little kit; however it takes a long time to learn where you are going wrong because each day is different.

 

 

 

TEH

[Hamster]

why arnt all pigeon loads avaialble in 7s? makes you wonder.... if 7s are that good.

the relationship is distance. 6s get there with more speed / energy.

 

There are many many oddities and old wives tales in shooting, this is just another. Some people do prefer 6's others experience better overall performance with 7's (don't forget Archie Coates recommended the smaller shot).

 

The reason manufacturers offer 6 or 6.5 shot in their pigeon loads instead of 7's is because the can get away with it. It's simply easier not to have to offer 7's as well because they keep telling you 6's are the right shot and you keep believing them, simples. I go out of my way to seek out plastic wadded true English 7's for my pigeon shooting (even if it means ordering in clay loads in 28g), including some very high flighted birds and with a bit of choke they do the biz at least as well as size 6.

 

Look at the budget clay loads that have come on the market in the last few years, they're all offered in 7.5 shot only, despite the fact that 8's account for around 50% of the clay market in general - they just don't have to bother offering both sizes.

[the hitman]

I have been shooting Eley Olympics 28g 7.5 over decoys for a couple of years now , and found they kill every bit as well as the heavier "game" loads i used to use.

This cartridge was recommended to be by a friend who shoots a lot of pigeons , and the price was not reason .

I use 1/4 & 3/4 choke combination , and set my decoys between 18- 35 paces out from the hide , this does not mean they wont kill beyond this.

 

Hope this helps

 

Hitman.