Evolution/natural selection. Yes or no?

[Vipa]

 

 

 

When you say clergy do you mean all clergy or do you mean Roman Catholic priests?

 

 

And when you mean 'most', do you really mean a very small percentage?

 

I can't comment on other 'regiments' but I am VERY reliably informed that in the Catholic Church it is more than 50%, much more, so.... 'Most' would seem to fit!

[figgy]

I find it hard to believe in a society with the science and technology we have that there are people that believe in Adam and Eve.

 

Evolution can be seen and studied.

 

Figgy

[Vipa]

 

 

To be fair, Roman Catholicism is a just a sort of pagan version of Christianity contrived by the Romans when the Empire decided to convert, and as there was nothing a self-respecting Roman enjoyed more than giving a good rogering to a pre-pubescent catamite, you have to admit they are at least consistent.

 

I think you will find, if you do some research, that Christianity and Catholicism are one and the same. Catholic Answer Christianity was the first church founded on the rock of St. Peter, the apostle (who was the first pope) by Jesus. All other Christian sects branched from there.. The term Christianity is a catch-all reference rather than being a specific religion... It's meaning has also changed in more recent times as have a lot of things!

 

I find it hard to believe in a society with the science and technology we have that there are people that believe in Adam and Eve.

 

Evolution can be seen and studied.

 

Figgy

 

apparently more than 50% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old and was created by god in 6 days!

 

If you point out that we have carbon dated fossilised dinosaur bones dating back millions of years, the stock answer is that it is gods way of testing their faith! And that's the great thing about faith, it requires no proof, no evidence whatsoever.

 

Nowt stranger than folk!

Edited March 14, 2013 by Vipa

[paul65]

I find it hard to believe in a society with the science and technology we have that there are people that believe in Adam and Eve.

 

Evolution can be seen and studied.

 

Figgy

 

Evolution can be seen and studied insofar as there is change to a population from generation to generation through natural selection. It would be hard to argue with this. However, the theory of common descent from a single ancestor, which some see as implicit in evolution through natural selection, is far from cut and dried.

[FalconFN]

 

 

Evolution can be seen and studied insofar as there is change to a population from generation to generation through natural selection. It would be hard to argue with this. However, the theory of common descent from a single ancestor, which some see as implicit in evolution through natural selection, is far from cut and dried.

It can also de studied in the fossil record and in DNA similarities. Nothing in science is cut and dried but there is very compelling evidence to support natural selection as the method of speciation and development.

[goodo123]

I'll just pop out in my time machine and find out........

[crosshair]

It seems there are quite a few on here that are into religion, but having religious beliefs does not make you right.

We all know people that are not religious, but are much more honest than the mad mullahs.

[Vince Green]

It must be nice to have strong religious beliefs, I don't have any. Somebody I know's mum died recently and I said to him I was sorry to hear about it. His reply suprised me, i knew he went to church but he said "well she's in heaven now with my dad so she will be happy" and I could see he totally and absolutely believed it.

 

I can't imagine anyone having that level of belief. It must make life very reassuring

[four-wheel-drive]

It must be nice to have strong religious beliefs, I don't have any. Somebody I know's mum died recently and I said to him I was sorry to hear about it. His reply suprised me, i knew he went to church but he said "well she's in heaven now with my dad so she will be happy" and I could see he totally and absolutely believed it.

 

I can't imagine anyone having that level of belief. It must make life very reassuring

I have to agree with you on this it must be nice to think that there was some point in life other that passing your DNA on but I am afraid my mind is just to logical to believe in gods and afterlife.

[Vipa]

It must be nice to have strong religious beliefs, I don't have any. Somebody I know's mum died recently and I said to him I was sorry to hear about it. His reply suprised me, i knew he went to church but he said "well she's in heaven now with my dad so she will be happy" and I could see he totally and absolutely believed it.

 

I can't imagine anyone having that level of belief. It must make life very reassuring

 

 

^{I am completely anti religion, I do not believe in god and I think the Bible is a book of moral stories designed to instill a set of rules into a population who, at the time, were pretty lawless and imoral.. it sets out horrible eternal punishments and magical eternal rewards depending on whether you break the rules or not... punishments and rewards that cannot be seen or evidenced...and would last FOR EVER!!!! it played on unsophisticated, uneducated and gullible minds and, if you think about it, back then who wouldn't be terrified of consequence.... even kings deffered to the church in fear for their immortal soul... how it is still doing the rounds in the 21st century is beyond me..... I think Bertram Russel summed it up nicely...}

 

^{"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."}

 

Mind you, I also think the Monty Python team hit the nail on the head with The Life of Brian and Douglas Adams Hitchikers Guide offerd up ideas that are no more silly and just as plausible as the Bible does with God, Heaven and the Holy Trinity!... strange how the producers of the old TV series saw fit to make Slartibartfast look and dress very much like an aging Jesus might!

 

^{I was brought up Catholic by devout Catholic parents who were both teachers, and Mum was a head of a big Catholic school.. I have relatives who are priests (my inside source for the priesthood!) further back than that I also have relatives that became monastic monks... I have had the bible and religion rammed far enough down my throat since birth to be able to take a step back and realise how rediculous it all is... My wife has 'faith' and, to appease her I sometimes go to the local community church with her, so I can look after the kids and let her get on with it... it's the kind of church you see on the TV in the american mid west... dancing in the aisles... pastors touching forheads and the 'believer' passing out on the spot... you know the kind of thing... I find it very difficult because all I want to do is laugh but, they do a great job in lots of other ways for the community so, I can't really criticise too much...}

 

^{Some people need faith.. they need to 'know' that there is somewhere to go after death... thankfully, I don't!}

 

^{As for the OP... (tin hat is now on)... I do belive Darwin was right BUT.... I also believe that it couldn't possibly have happened by accident.... I do believe in the theory of intelligent design but, as I have said elsewhere, my beliefs raise more questions than they answer!}

Edited March 14, 2013 by Vipa

[Hamster]

Nice post Vipa.

[Gimlet]

Darwin had it about right.

But why should the fact of natural selection negate any possibility of a sentient authority in the universe? All it disproves are the creation myths in religious texts which are just sectarian chap-books written by men.

I refuse to use the loaded term 'God' so for want of something better I'll stick to intelligent creator. Why does the only admissible 'evidence' for an intelligent creatort have to be a self-evidently fantastical bronze age Judaic fable?

Science did not begin or end with Darwin, so why should the concept of intelligent creation begin and end with the fairytale allegory of the book of Genesis? That's like studying a period of history only by reading nursery rhymes. Its anti-scientific.

I loathe religion, for the conceit of mankind's belief in his own importance as much as anything, but dogmatic atheism is every bit as shallow.

 

Edit: or in other words more or less what Vipa says above. Not paraphrasing you Vipa, didn't spot your post come through before I posted mine.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Gimlet

[Hamster]

Can someone explain what you mean by intelligent design?

 

There was a documentary on rattle snakes in the USA where every year thousands are gathered up for the annual festivals and apparently within a few years in certain areas rattlers now don't actually rattle any more. It's not intelligence on the part of the snake nor a secret god helping things along. Quite simply the few mutations that had the inability to sound an alarm were left over and bred more flawed specimens just so happens the flaw is kind of useful to them now but wasn't before. Evolution at work within our lifetime.

[paul65]

Can someone explain what you mean by intelligent design?

 

Broadly it means that we were intentionally designed by some being(s). The first thought for most is that means 'God' but it would also cover the possibility that we were designed in a lab by some alien race.

 

 

There was a documentary on rattle snakes in the USA where every year thousands are gathered up for the annual festivals and apparently within a few years in certain areas rattlers now don't actually rattle any more. It's not intelligence on the part of the snake nor a secret god helping things along. Quite simply the few mutations that had the inability to sound an alarm were left over and bred more flawed specimens just so happens the flaw is kind of useful to them now but wasn't before. Evolution at work within our lifetime.

 

Wake me up when they grow legs and fur.

Edited March 14, 2013 by paul65

[Gimlet]

Can someone explain what you mean by intelligent design?

 

There was a documentary on rattle snakes in the USA where every year thousands are gathered up for the annual festivals and apparently within a few years in certain areas rattlers now don't actually rattle any more. It's not intelligence on the part of the snake nor a secret god helping things along. Quite simply the few mutations that had the inability to sound an alarm were left over and bred more flawed specimens just so happens the flaw is kind of useful to them now but wasn't before. Evolution at work within our lifetime.

 

Not sure about intelligent design, but by intelligent creator I mean a sentient creative authority in the universe. A progenitive entity that is self-aware.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Gimlet

[Vipa]

Can someone explain what you mean by intelligent design?

 

There was a documentary on rattle snakes in the USA where every year thousands are gathered up for the annual festivals and apparently within a few years in certain areas rattlers now don't actually rattle any more. It's not intelligence on the part of the snake nor a secret god helping things along. Quite simply the few mutations that had the inability to sound an alarm were left over and bred more flawed specimens just so happens the flaw is kind of useful to them now but wasn't before. Evolution at work within our lifetime.

 

As well as being a devout catholic, my mum is also a scientist, a biologist to be more precise... (you would be surprised as to the views on religion that come from such a devout catholic... far more pragmatic and questioning than you would think... In my experience, it tends to be those who find religion later in life and become thumpers who take the bible literaly, those brought up around, even invested in, the more traditional churches tend to be more enlightened and sensible about the whole thing! ) I also have a healthy interest in medicine and absorb as much as I can on the subject..

 

If you look at what goes on in the human body, microsecond to microsecond, in order that everything works in equilibrium even on a cellular level, it is so complex and 'unlikely' that, to my mind anyway, it can't have just happened by accident when some amino acids combined creating proteins, so on and so forth... Simple living creatures, single celled amoebas for example, yes... but complex machines such as humans!!!! ? It is simply mind blowing...

 

Intelligent design would suggest that the programming was present at the start and that evolution has followed a random but planned path... The problem with intelligent design is that, unlike religion or aethiesm which both provide answers to the question of life the universe and everything, believing in intelligent design, rather than answering questions just raises more... if there is intelligent design, who were the designers, if there are designers, who designed the designers etc... etc...

Edited March 14, 2013 by Vipa

[FalconFN]

Darwin had it about right.

But why should the fact of natural selection negate any possibility of a sentient authority in the universe? All it disproves are the creation myths in religious texts which are just sectarian chap-books written by men.

I refuse to use the loaded term 'God' so for want of something better I'll stick to intelligent creator. Why does the only admissible 'evidence' for an intelligent creatort have to be a self-evidently fantastical bronze age Judaic fable?

Science did not begin or end with Darwin, so why should the concept of intelligent creation begin and end with the fairytale allegory of the book of Genesis? That's like studying a period of history only by reading nursery rhymes. Its anti-scientific.

I loathe religion, for the conceit of mankind's belief in his own importance as much as anything, but dogmatic atheism is every bit as shallow.

As you have rightly said, natural selection doesn't negate the possibility of an intelligent force in the universe, nor is it an argument against God, that's why I was steering the poll away from how life began to how it progressed.

 

Personally I don't understand how people attach themselves to religious groups when you don't need man-made religion to believe in a god and there is no evidence that one version of god is better than any other. I am not arrogant enough to state that there definitely is or is not a 'creator' (although on balance I would think not) so I am agnostic.

[Paul223]

The book of Genesis says that Eve also had two daughters, Cain married one of them, yes his sister.

So, it looks like that's when the in-breeding started.

soooo, the garden of eden can be found in north norfolk then?

[evo]

one thing i have noticed is,,people who are involved in religion have had something happen to them in their life, something that has gone wrong, ie, a death,, a divorce,,etc

one of my family members turned to gehova or jehova however you spell it, this happened after a divorce. the person then after being baptised with hundreds of others decided it was his divine right to preach the religion he beleived in, day after day he would knock on doors, every other part of his life melted away ,nothing mattered except for preaching his religion with his and i quote brothers and sisters, but one thing stood out,,his house would get smashed up, his car was repeatedly vandalised, he had eggs thrown at him and allsorts of abuse,yet he still carried on,walking the streets talking to people and reasuring them that his god would help,, he said he would never die,why ? because he would live for ever until the day his god might choose him as one of the 144,000 to join him in heaven,

 

on doing his rounds he had a stroke and guess what,,,,,,,, he died,,

 

so what happened to his God, this taught me that religion is what you make it and you get from it what you want, but as for being true ,,well think its bull myself

[four-wheel-drive]

I think that this religion thing is all based on death it seems to me that the human mind cannot except death as the end it is not logical that we are borne and live and then die for nothing so we make up reasons the whole thing makes no sense to me people say there must be a reason but why dose there have to be a reason is it not possible for things to just happen.

[henry d]

^{I am completely anti religion, I do not believe in god and I think the Bible is a book of moral stories designed to instill a set of rules into a population who, at the time, were pretty lawless and imoral.. it sets out horrible eternal punishments and magical eternal rewards depending on whether you break the rules or not There is only one rule, as someone who had religion "rammed" down their throat you should know this... punishments and rewards that cannot be seen or evidenced...and would last FOR EVER!!!! it played on unsophisticated, uneducated and gullible minds and, if you think about it, back then who wouldn't be terrified of consequence.... even kings deffered to the church in fear for their immortal soul.So how did the Kings and people of Judah and Israel disobey God so many times that they ended up being over-run by Syrians, Egyptians, Babylonians etc?..}

 

one thing i have noticed is,,people who are involved in religion have had something happen to them in their life, something that has gone wrong..... Had lots of things happen in my past and they never turned me to religion, wars, death of a friend at a shout etc.

 

....on doing his rounds he had a stroke and guess what,,,,,,,, he died,,

 

so what happened to his God So let me get this right, God has to not allow people to die? Should God only allow good things to happen?

 

I think that this religion thing is all based on death Go read the Bible, please, it is all about life not death

[Scully]

It must be nice to have strong religious beliefs, I don't have any. Somebody I know's mum died recently and I said to him I was sorry to hear about it. His reply suprised me, i knew he went to church but he said "well she's in heaven now with my dad so she will be happy" and I could see he totally and absolutely believed it.

 

I can't imagine anyone having that level of belief. It must make life very reassuring

It was my Mams funeral yesterday,and it was a nice funeral with all her friends(not many,she'd outlived most of them!)and relatives there,and I got up to say a few words,and went through the whole process,for her,because she believed,and the church has played such a big part throughout her life.Some things rankle however,as during the time my sister and I were nursing her one of her neighbours said she was concerned about my mother and thought the vicar should be allowed to come round and bless her.I had to stop myself from asking her if God was so great,where was he now when my Mam was calling out in pain,and really needed him.Another one was another neighbour who wrote an entire letter/poem,and finished it with the phrase...'I knew your Mum as a lovely God fearing person......' Now I know he meant well,and he is in fact a very nice bloke,but if God is so ******* great,why should anyone fear him?What sort of a God is it he that warrants being feared? Next thing we're being told how gentle and kind he is!

I would truly like to think I was going to see her again,and my Dad,but there are just so many things regarding the whole God thing; everlasting life;heaven etc, which just don't make any sense,or contradict each other or are just so ridiculously illogical that common sense tells me the entire thing is just so much bunkum.

[Blunderbuss]

Scully, sorry for your loss. If nowhere else, your Mum lives on in your memories of her. Look after yourself.

[hedd-wyn]

Again, sorry to hear for your loss Scully.

[Vipa]

^{So how did the Kings and people of Judah and Israel disobey God so many times that they ended up being over-run by Syrians, Egyptians, Babylonians etc?..}

 

 

 

Is that what the bible tells you happened Henry?

 

 

Scully, sorry for your loss. If nowhere else, your Mum lives on in your memories of her. Look after yourself.

 

Edited March 14, 2013 by Vipa