Richard V Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Hello, A work colleague has brought himself a nice Baikal, although officially it's mine as it's on my licence as he hasn't got one, in reality it's his property. The plan is ofcourse that he goes shooting with me and all is well, it's like himself having his own gun, apart from he has to be with me, I'm responsible for his gun, and he can't take it home at night. However my question is will I beable to loan the gun to another work colleague who has a licence under the 72 hour rule, and the non licence holder can still go shooting with the said work colleague, under his licence, without the grace of my presence? Many thanks, Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty J Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 I think you should be very careful what you post on an open forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) IF you lend the baikal that is on your cert to another SGC holder that is fine under 72 hour rules as you don't need to inform police. If the baikal is to be used at any time by a none cert holder then the law has to be complied with. I.e. at a section 11(6) ground or in the presence of the occupier of the land. Edited March 24, 2013 by HDAV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyboy Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 There completely nothing wrong with what you are planning to do, out of interest why dosent he just apply for a gun licence ? As long as the certificate holder is within shouting distance and visual contact can be made with the non certificate holder whilst shooting you are not commiting a crime ! Regardless of who the gun belongs to the 72 hour rule applies to certificate holders and therefore a certificate holder can lend a non cert holder under supervision ! It's not an ideal way to do things but this advise I was given from a very good source and as long as the permission you have to shoot over is your own through agreement with a farmer etc or lease then ur mate has nowt to worry about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highbird70 Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Richard, I exactly know what you mean, I have done it too in the past with a relative, he paid for the shotgun, but its registered on your certificate....legally you are the lawfull owner and responsible for it, even if he as paid, that doesn't matter, you have taken charge of the shotgun. Saying that.....yes you can take your colleague shooting with you, as long you have permission from the landowner and you stay with him and he will have that false feeling that the gun its his, in reality its not and yes, due to the fact that the gun its registered in your name, you can lend it up to 72 hours to a shotgun certificate holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) I think you should be very careful what you post on an open forum I'm not following that, what are you suggesting? I can hardly remember a time I haven't had someone elses shotgun on my SGC (I have 2 at the moment from different people) and I have even done the same on my FAC! Edited March 24, 2013 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard V Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 I think you should be very careful what you post on an open forum We're not doing anything wrong are we? As far as I know while it is his gun as he paid for it it's in my custody, which is all above board He only wants to shoot clays and the ground we go to does have a section 11(6). Ofcourse he can't go to the strawbale type places. We've been mithering him to get his own SGC however I guess he doesn't want to bother with all that business which that entails, he just seemed happy to borrow my gun until he realised that a left cast gun was much better as he's left handed, now he's got his own gun ableit on my licence which he's going to change into a left handed cast, and he's still happy with the current arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyboy Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 U won't here alot if talk about this but I guarantee the same situation happens all over the place ! This situation certainly isn't the first I've heard of it going on and why not ! Perfectly fine ! Abide by the rules tho and my best advice is to join basc and speak to them they can help in all sorts of stuff like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 TBH for the £50 fee + £6 photos and a stamp he is daft not to get SGC but by buying a cast off gun to get bent to cast on has proven not to be the sharpest knife in the draw...... Unless there is a reason he/she ( my guess is he) is unlikely to be approved... As long as not a prohibited person it's all legal. Not something I would want to do long term mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 I got stuffed by the former broomhills and sold a shottie with no licence which they were going to take care of for me apparently so I have had this conversation with my FEO several times , you can indeed own a shotgun with no licence but you can't posess one as I beleive somebody has already stated, the big grey area is when you are in a field " supervising" your friend with the gun he brought and you look after for him, if you have your gun in your hand and he has his how can you be supervising him whilst concentrating on using or being safe with your own gun? I was told its a grey area and to venture into it at my peril Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) I would not be happy with the arrangement, I don't think it's been tested in law and I seem to remember a clause about the land owner or his servant, if you are neither it would be foolish not to seek proper guidance from your shooting org. Edited March 25, 2013 by Paul223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) I got stuffed by the former broomhills and sold a shottie with no licence which they were going to take care of for me apparently so I have had this conversation with my FEO several times , you can indeed own a shotgun with no licence but you can't posess one as I beleive somebody has already stated, the big grey area is when you are in a field " supervising" your friend with the gun he brought and you look after for him, if you have your gun in your hand and he has his how can you be supervising him whilst concentrating on using or being safe with your own gun? I was told its a grey area and to venture into it at my peril You only have to be within earshot, you don't have to be holding his hand! But as usual this is wondering! Edited March 25, 2013 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 I would not be happy with the arrangement, I don't think it's been tested in law and I seem to remember a clause about the land owner or his servant, if you are neither it would be foolish not to seek proper guidance from your shooting org. its only clays and at a ground with the correct section 11 so no problems at all were it elsewhere vermin shooting then you could worry about the occupier issue but while its approved clay grounds there is no issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 You only have to be within earshot, you don't have to be holding his hand! But as usual this is wondering! I'm not sure of the wording of the law or definition of " supervising" , it was just something my FEO said was a " grey" area when he gave me my cert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 its only clays and at a ground with the correct section 11 so no problems at all were it elsewhere vermin shooting then you could worry about the occupier issue but while its approved clay grounds there is no issue ahhhh sorry didn't see the ref to clays, in that case yeah no worries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 I'm not sure of the wording of the law or definition of " supervising" , it was just something my FEO said was a " grey" area when he gave me my cert Yeah, FEO say that a lot when they don't have a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 On the grounds (no pun intended) that it may not be just the OP who benefits from this thread, it's now obvious that it isn't sufficient to just say that based on the details given by him, that all is legit'. Some posts have strayed from the 'straight and narrow' and anyone not paying attention to the comments from HDAV and al4x could end up in bother as seemingly we've moved away from the properly certificated clay pigeon range environment. Surprisingly, in the wider environment, it can be easier to borrow a rifle than a shotgun but the specifics often get confused as they do between an occupier and permission holder. One member should consider kicking his reliable source into touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markr Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) yes you can take your colleague shooting with you, as long you have permission from the landowner and you stay with him sorry mate an unlicenced shooter can only shoot on land with a borrowed gun in the presence of the land owner, having written permission does not count, I had this conversation with our FAO when he came to do my sons interview a few months back as I told him the written rule was a little unclear if having written permission would be legal or not. he made it very clear that a person not holding a sgc could only shoot at a registerd clay club or on land with the actual land owner in attendance otherwise it is classed as tresspass with a firearm EVEN IF YOURE CARRYING WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE LAND OWNER?. Edited March 25, 2013 by Markr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 as above,i asked my flo and he said no.best thing for him is get a licence,he can go with you only if you own the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Hello, A work colleague has brought himself a nice Baikal, although officially it's mine as it's on my licence as he hasn't got one, in reality it's his property. The plan is ofcourse that he goes shooting with me and all is well, it's like himself having his own gun, apart from he has to be with me, I'm responsible for his gun, and he can't take it home at night. However my question is will I beable to loan the gun to another work colleague who has a licence under the 72 hour rule, and the non licence holder can still go shooting with the said work colleague, under his licence, without the grace of my presence? Many thanks, Richard. He has commited an offence pursuant to S.2(1) of the 1968 Act by purchasing the shotgun without holding a shotgun certificate. Who ever sold him it has commited an offence pursuant to S.3(2) for selling a shotgun to a person who is not the holder of a certificate as long as he thought that he was selling it to him and not you. You have probably comitted various offences. J. I'm not following that, what are you suggesting? I can hardly remember a time I haven't had someone elses shotgun on my SGC (I have 2 at the moment from different people) and I have even done the same on my FAC! If they have an SGC or FAC then that is fine. It is a specific offence to purchase a gun without a certificate even if you never intend to take possession of it. J. U won't here alot if talk about this but I guarantee the same situation happens all over the place ! This situation certainly isn't the first I've heard of it going on and why not ! Perfectly fine ! Abide by the rules tho and my best advice is to join basc and speak to them they can help in all sorts of stuff like this You say that it is 'perfectly fine' and then use the phrase 'abide by the rules..'. The owner of the gun already has failed to abide by the rules by illegally purchasing the gun. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsdad Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 sorry mate an unlicenced shooter can only shoot on land with a borrowed gun in the presence of the land owner, having written permission does not count, I had this conversation with our FAO when he came to do my sons interview a few months back as I told him the written rule was a little unclear if having written permission would be legal or not. he made it very clear that a person not holding a sgc could only shoot at a registerd clay club or on land with the actual land owner in attendance otherwise it is classed as tresspass with a firearm EVEN IF YOURE CARRYING WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE LAND OWNER?. Partly right - it's not just permission you require, you can lend a shotgun to someone you are with who is not a cert holder if you are the land over OR an agent of the landowner e.g the gamekeeper. This is where it becomes grey as some would argue that as someone with shooting permission to control pests you become an agent of the landowner. Some would argue differently. One thing is for sure, the law is not clear but I don't think I would fancy being the one in a test case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 sorry mate an unlicenced shooter can only shoot on land with a borrowed gun in the presence of the land owner, having written permission does not count, I had this conversation with our FAO when he came to do my sons interview a few months back as I told him the written rule was a little unclear if having written permission would be legal or not. he made it very clear that a person not holding a sgc could only shoot at a registerd clay club or on land with the actual land owner in attendance otherwise it is classed as tresspass with a firearm EVEN IF YOURE CARRYING WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE LAND OWNER?. Wrong. It is the 'occupier'. Land owners are not mentioned anywhere in the Act, as far as I recall. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Partly right - it's not just permission you require, you can lend a shotgun to someone you are with who is not a cert holder if you are the land over OR an agent of the landowner e.g the gamekeeper. This is where it becomes grey as some would argue that as someone with shooting permission to control pests you become an agent of the landowner. Some would argue differently. One thing is for sure, the law is not clear but I don't think I would fancy being the one in a test case. It's neither land owner nor agent. It's oppupier'. 11(5) A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence. What constitues an 'occupier' is open to some question but if you have the sole shooting rights then you are almost certainly an occupier. In fact, if that is the case then it could be argued that the actual land owner may not be an occupier for those purposes as if he has leased the shooting to you exclusively then he exercises no control over the land for shooting puposes. J. Edited March 25, 2013 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 as above,i asked my flo and he said no.best thing for him is get a licence,he can go with you only if you own the land. Not quite right. Adding, 'or occupy it' corrects it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) He has commited an offence pursuant to S.2(1) of the 1968 Act by purchasing the shotgun without holding a shotgun certificate. Who ever sold him it has commited an offence pursuant to S.3(2) for selling a shotgun to a person who is not the holder of a certificate as long as he thought that he was selling it to him and not you. You have probably comitted various offences. J. If they have an SGC or FAC then that is fine. It is a specific offence to purchase a gun without a certificate even if you never intend to take possession of it. J. You say that it is 'perfectly fine' and then use the phrase 'abide by the rules..'. The owner of the gun already has failed to abide by the rules by illegally purchasing the gun. J. BS "I bought the shotgun, it is on My SGC, it is mine, it is legal!" THE END! Nobody has illegally bought a shotgun to pass on the a non SGC holder for a bank job! Edited March 25, 2013 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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