deaquire Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 ^ The law is indeed the law. Can a 14 year old, unsupervised, take his 14 year old mate out with him shooting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) ^ The law is indeed the law. Can a 14 year old, unsupervised, take his 14 year old mate out with him shooting? OK so I may be old but when I was 14 on the farms around where my uncle lived in Warwickshire such things happened all the time. Nobody would have given it a second thought. We didn't even have licences. If we had been stopped (which we never were) we would have just said it was my uncles rifle or someone's dads rifle and that would have been enough. It was a different world then but we weren't any bother to anyone. I can't really see why its all got so flippin' complicated. It hasn't made anything better. Edited July 27, 2013 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Perhaps when you were 14, it would have been the norm for your parents to have several pints and drive home, I know my parents' generation did. Comparing two things, when one was (I'm only surmising and don't intend to be rude) a good few years ago, is neither fair nor appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) Perhaps when you were 14, it would have been the norm for your parents to have several pints and drive home, I know my parents' generation did. Comparing two things, when one was (I'm only surmising and don't intend to be rude) a good few years ago, is neither fair nor appropriate. Oh yes my dad and uncle would have a few pints and drive home right enough, so would the village Bobby and the local magistrate! What's wrong with making comparisons? its not like we can turn back the clock so its just nostalgia. But this madness of wanting to micro manage every tiny detail of our lives is just Orwellian. Its like social bindweed tying up everything by stealth. Edited July 27, 2013 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 My point is that just because something happened years ago, doesn't make it right today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 deaquire - you seem intent on making a point without any substance. You are happy to statements about the maturity of teenagers, without anything to back it up. I assume the people who made the law gave it a little more thought than you. I repeat - the law is the law. Live with it. Forgive me suspecting your motives, but I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Perhaps when you were 14, it would have been the norm for your parents to have several pints and drive home, I know my parents' generation did. Comparing two things, when one was (I'm only surmising and don't intend to be rude) a good few years ago, is neither fair nor appropriate. I don't understand your problem with young people being granted access to firearms, unless of course you have an ulterior motive or personal agenda. As recently as 2010 the Government, Police and Home Affairs Committe have all commented on this very subject and all, without exception, have stated that the current age restrictions give no cause for concern. In fact ACC Whiting (ACPO) stated to the HAC, when the committee investigated the licensing of firearms, that young people posed a "very low risk". The HAC summed up as follows............ A large number of young people enjoy shooting in a safe and responsible manner. However, the legislation governing their use of firearms is extremely complex and confusing. We recommend that the Government brings forward proposals to simplify and clarify (a) the age at which an individual is permitted to shoot under supervision in the controlled environment of a shooting range; (b) the age at which an individual is permitted to shoot under supervision outside of such a controlled environment; and © the age at which an individual is permitted to shoot unsupervised. In formulating such proposals, the Government should be informed by our beliefs that the risks involved in shooting are greatly mitigated under supervision; that the purpose of granting a licence should be to allow an individual to shoot unsupervised; and that we can see no good reason to maintain the current differences in age restrictions between section 1 firearms and shotguns, the origins of which are purely historical. This is the CA view on the subject................. Ensuring the continued ability of young people to enter shooting sports is of the utmost importance. As has been repeatedly stated, young shooters do not pose a danger to society and misplaced concerns about the number of young certificate holders have been shamelessly whipped up in the local media especially. A ‘no touch’ minimum age limit would be extremely damaging to shooting sports and do nothing to improve public safety. Any review of age limits must enable young people graduated and controlled access to firearms as their age and maturity increases. It is essential that parents are not deprived of the right to make their own reasonable decisions as to when and how their children are given access to firearms and to shooting sports. Currently, parents do a pretty good job at this. • It might also fairly be said that the very process of applying for a certificate instills a very strong sense of responsibility in a young person. Once they have a certificate they have much more to lose by delinquent behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 ^ The law is indeed the law. Can a 14 year old, unsupervised, take his 14 year old mate out with him shooting? This was a legit question. Anyone? deaquire - you seem intent on making a point without any substance. You are happy to statements about the maturity of teenagers, without anything to back it up. I assume the people who made the law gave it a little more thought than you. I repeat - the law is the law. Live with it. Forgive me suspecting your motives, but I do. So I assume your voice will be silent when they further tighten existing legislation? After all, I'm sure they've given it a lot more thought than you. Let's stay polite. I'm agreeing with you; the law is the law. That does not mean we can't question it. I don't understand your problem with young people being granted access to firearms, unless of course you have an ulterior motive or personal agenda. As recently as 2010 the Government, Police and Home Affairs Committe have all commented on this very subject and all, without exception, have stated that the current age restrictions give no cause for concern. In fact ACC Whiting (ACPO) stated to the HAC, when the committee investigated the licensing of firearms, that young people posed a "very low risk". Perhaps they pose a very low risk because of all of the stipulations that are put in place before they are allowed their own license and firearm. The vetting, land checks, interviews and references. Otherwise they are supervised (by an adult who has been fully vetted by police) using a rifle not belonging to them. I haven't said I have a problem with youngsters having access to Firearms, I think it's fantastic that they have this opportunity. I've lived in a rural area all of my life and shooting is an integral part of responsible land management. I do, however, think that 14 is too young to be unsupervised with a rifle. It's just my opinion and my initial comment was a simple reaction to finding out that a 14 year old child can shoot unsupervised. Gees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 deaquire - we will have to agree to disagree, as I was not as obviously astonished as were you. No problem there - let's keep it polite, without your sarcasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) I was brought up around all types of guns and handled them from a young age, the first thing my father and uncle did was instil a culture of safety and respect which I lapped up........why, you ask......because my dad was letting me shoot a gun.......I would not have dreamed of using it unwisely and loosing that privilege. Most children with a FAC or SGC have been brought up around guns and are not your average chav with a airgun. In my opinion it gives the child a sense of responsibility and ensures they grow up to be a worthwhile member of society. I will be teaching my daughter to shoot soon with a airgun and will be getting her a FAC / SGC as soon as she is old enough if she wants to. I would be more worried about the zombie like 'Call of Duty' generation that get drunk and go and stab somebody as a game. Edited July 27, 2013 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) My point is that just because something happened years ago, doesn't make it right today.It doesn't make it wrong either, There's no reason to say it was wrong, how was it wrong? Edited July 27, 2013 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 to be fair ive seen some posts on here with pic's of shot rabbits that make you think about backstops and not one was a guy under 30 Maybe sometimes the youngster's may be a safer option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 </sarcasmdropped> Apologies. I think if National Service was brought back then my own generation would have much more respect for themselves and everything around them. Of course there are exceptions like everything but we do live in a hoodlum society that can get you stabbed for looking at the wrong person which is a terrifying thing. Give those 14 year old children unsupervised access to a rifle and I do think it would be a problem. But hey ho like you've pointed out, it's hasn't been an issue with zero cases I've managed to find so far (UK). But I think it still beggars the question; is that because of the strict laws governing the grants of licenses by the firearms department? If we were to loosen the laws; would things deteriorate? to be fair ive seen some posts on here with pic's of shot rabbits that make you think about backstops and not one was a guy under 30 Maybe sometimes the youngster's may be a safer option It's strange that a lot of people recognise things like this and yet so few would support any kind of introduction to improve safety through saftey courses etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted September 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 (edited) Update on my sons SGC/FAC app,after my last update 20/7/13 I stated that I was going to notifying BASC,however I thought I, ll give Durham space as the school was now on 6 wks holls.Phoned head of yr this morning and guess what, no letter from Durham AGAIN.So phoned Durham and got no help at all, not even an offer to cont the FEO to find out what he is doing.Well this morning I spoke to a very nice chap at BASC who wasnt least surprised re the inconsistencies re Durham.Told him about the FEO not knowing I held a SGC/FAC when I had attached a letter to the app advising that Josh had been shooting sg with me from an early age and had worked his way up from 410, 20, 12G over the yrs. Also that the Firearms he would be using would be on his FAC as shared as these are my rifles. Contacting BASC is something I didn't want to do, the time scale isnt the issue its the way its been done, computers being updated but actions not carried out, FEO's doing visits with no background knowledge.Well lets see if BASC can sort it? Edited September 10, 2013 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essex Keeper Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 I put in for my fac had the feo come round then didn't hear anything for a couple weeks so I got on the phone Best thing I could of ever done because they had lost it yes lost it So never fear ringing them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Have you paid them any money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted September 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Yep that's where they don't waste time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Surely there'd be some sort of trading standards issue here? In that you've paid for a service but quite clearly haven't received it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) Phoneing BASC was a waste of time.Spoke to a nice guy who just wanted to rabble on about other force area problems & his own knowleadge in FAC application procedures.He just wasn't listening to what i was saying. Edited September 19, 2013 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) I'm now waiting for a copy of the psychiatrists report for my Autistic son (not that Autism is a psychological disorder!). We saw her on Monday as part of the formal complaint we made to the NHS Trust in 2010, they agreed to have him assessed following his appalling GPs letter which prevented him applying for his SGC. Over the last 3 years he's had a few meetings with members of her team and she was very impressed with him and doesn't need to see him again. While she can't write and say he should be granted an SGC/FAC (no doctor will take that responsibility) her report will say he is a happy, well adjusted and socially interactive young man with no violence or anger issues, hopefully this will be enough to override the pile of **** his previous GP wrote 3 years ago. Next step is to join SACS so we have some legal backup if needed then after his new GP receives his copy of the report we'll make an appointment and discuss the situation with him, after that (all going well) we'll re-apply for his SGC and possibly his FAC as well. He's been shooting for over 7 years now, is a member of 4 clubs, has had his NRA Shooter Certification Card for about 2-1/2 years and safely shoots a variety of firearms including air rifle, 22LR, Clay Pigeon, PSG, indoor .44 .308 and outdoor target .308. Edited September 19, 2013 by phaedra1106 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Phoneing BASC was a waste of time.Spoke to a nice guy who just wanted to rabble on about other force area problems & his own knowleadge in FAC application procedures.He just wasn't listening to what i was saying. Wouldn't have expected anything else from basc, maybe people on here will now stop thinking they are the be all and end all where shooting is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) To be honest I thought the least BASC would do was either call me back or drop an email.He prob just told me he'd look into it to get me off the phone, ironic really as thats what Durhams been doing for 7 mths. Edited September 19, 2013 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 My 14yr old sons FAC/SGC finally landed. The FAC appears to be an open cert as under additional conditions it states.the firearm and ammunition shall be used for shootingANY LAWFUL QUARRY SUITABLE FOR THAT CALABRE and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. The only other advisory is on a seperate letter that states, Although not a legal requirement it is advised thatJoshua be supervised during the course f shooting until he has attained the age of 18. The later is a condition that I would be applying anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROBLATCH Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 pleased to hear you are all sorted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essex Keeper Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Happy days !!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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