have BASC shot shooting in the foot?

[David BASC]

I am afraid you will now spend the next X number of posts trying to extract yourself from the hole you have expertly dug with your crass statement .

 

As you should know, I feel all forms of shooting that BASC represent are equally important and I would never be so stupid as to say publically or privately that any one form of sporting shooting should be disposed of in order to protect others.

 

Indeed I spend my life fighting to keep sporting shooting , and to ensure as far as I possibly can that shooters have something to shoot with, something to shoot at and somewhere to go shooting. The job it tough enough without shooters ignoring the law or suggesting one form of shooting is banned in order to protect lead.

 

Please all spread the word comply with the law or lose lead,

 

David

Edited July 25, 2013 by David BASC

[sitsinhedges]

I'm playing devils advocate as you well know.

 

If one form of shooting constantly breaks the Law why should all the others which are carried out completely legally have to pay the price for that? Why not just take away the ability of those who break the law to break it leaving the rest of us law abiding citizens alone.

 

I wouldn't ban anything personally but why should the actions of others ruin my sport whilst they largely get away scott free?

 

Unless you're trying to justify a deal that's already been done by looking for a scapegoat.

[-Mongrel-]

If one form of shooting constantly breaks the Law why should all the others which are carried out completely legally have to pay the price for that? Why not just take away the ability of those who break the law to break it leaving the rest of us law abiding citizens alone.

 

 

Agreed! You win, and seeing as it's game shooters who are the major culprits, then lets ban game shooting. Works for me, I'm a wildfowler!

 

 

 

 

Except it doesn't work for me, because I have no desire to see any area of our sport disappear. You may say 'I only shoot pigeons', but all of a sudden you'll have a lot of competition to shoot just about the only alternative winged quarry that you can fire lead at.

[sitsinhedges]

 

Agreed! You win, and seeing as it's game shooters who are the major culprits, then lets ban game shooting. Works for me, I'm a wildfowler!

 

 

 

 

Except it doesn't work for me, because I have no desire to see any area of our sport disappear. You may say 'I only shoot pigeons', but all of a sudden you'll have a lot of competition to shoot just about the only alternative winged quarry that you can fire lead at.

 

I'm still trying to understand the logic that because a tiny percentage of one aspect of our sport is acting illegally let's change the law to punish all the other shooters who are acting completely within the law. It's primary school logic.

 

It makes no sense at all unless the die is already cast and BASC are looking for someone to blame when it happens.

 

I can't comply with something that I don't take part in to any degree but it will affect my shooting and many other peoples for which there is no alternative method or equipment to which Davids response appears to be a shrug of the shoulders, hard cheese.

 

You are completely right we should all stick together or we'll all be picked off one by one.

[anser2]

The sooner lead is banned the better it will be for our quarry , the environment and shooting's image in the publics eye. Steel will do almost anything lead will do, but many shooters cant be bothered to change over. I have been usung steel for years for wildfowl , game and pigeons and have no problem with it. But treat it like lead and you will struggle with it. You need to use the right load , shot size and choke for the job. I got rid of my old guns to bought guns that are made to handle both steel and the correct choke for the type of shooting you undertake. I can now happly take quarry as large as geese at 50 yards with no worries about wounding , indeed if you suffer from wounded birds when using steel you are shooting out of range , provided you are using the correct type and a quality brand of shell such as Gamebore , RC or Remmington.

 

Just try Gamebore steel 32gr with an open choke in no 4 or 3 and the clean kills are amazing out to 40 yards . The only time I use lead these days is when the farmers supply me with farm cartridges for pigeons and I am now finding my shots for kills is worse than when using my own steel shells. Steel is a lot faster than most lead so I am now I miss too many birds behind with lead these days.

 

Has BASc shot shooting in the foot ? No its giving shooting a chance to continue on a modern world which if we do not follow will otherwise see our sport stopped in the future. There is no longer any excuse to use lead for any type of shotgun shooting so why continue using it and damage our sport.

Edited July 25, 2013 by anser2

[Scully]

Its fine David you'll just have to get the word spread round the house of Lords that they will be needing 3.5 Xtrema's for the next pheasant and grouse season to cope with the shell requirement and see if the law gets passed

I realise of course,that the above is intended with tongue firmly in cheek,but I can guarantee that those members of the House of Lords who shoot,will not be effected one iota by any lead shot ban.

As for other posts which jest about one form of shooting being sacrificed to save another,it's already been done,and our shooting organisations were implicit in the act.

As for all participants being prosecuted for the actions of the few,it usually happens when unenforceable laws are enacted upon minority groups.

I'm fairly frustrated with this entire business now;I want to believe BASC are doing all they can to help,but at the same time am exceedingly annoyed at the extremely amateurish method by which the 'compliance' results were obtained.For example,as a percentage of shooters countrywide,the number of those asked to respond was tiny,and the numbers who did actually respond smaller still,and even smaller was the number who admitted to non-compliance.And the entire compliance/non-compliance results were based on this?!! I find this absolutely astounding,and would be hilarious if the repercussions weren't so serious!

[spanj]

Wymberley,

 

 

I have said before that compliance is not the be all land end all, and to now be accused of implying this and being naive in doing so is a bit much!!

 

What I have said before is this; there are other threats to lead such as the questions on human health and the questions on environmental impacts that are being looked at by the LAG. These may yet prove to be significant issues that we need to address but until LAG reports and DEFRA decides what to do about the report findings we simply don’t know what if any, new threats we face for sure.

 

However regardless of LAG what I am very confident about is that is compliance is not seen to improve then lead will be banned regardless of any LAG report – and anyone who thinks differently is indeed naïve.

 

You asked if as you put it ‘in the main’ was BASC was looking to secure any compensation form the public purse if a ban comes in. I answered as best I could rather than just ignoring you!!! No I don’t know if this is possible, compensation has been paid in the past as we know to pistol owners, but whether or not there is any possibility of compensation in this case I can’t possibly answer.

 

Yes we do liaise very closely with the cartridge manufactures on product development based on market needs – we do not R&D new cartridges ourselves of course! I can see no other contingency other than wad and powder developments for the foreseeable future though.

 

 

Cant help myself here........... as a former pistol shooter, I received "compensation" for my Berretta 92 and S&W 686. It came to £400 the pair !!!! Glad I dont own a top end 2 1/2 " chambered gun

[spanj]

 

I'm still trying to understand the logic that because a tiny percentage of one aspect of our sport is acting illegally let's change the law to punish all the other shooters who are acting completely within the law. It's primary school logic.

 

It makes no sense at all unless the die is already cast and BASC are looking for someone to blame when it happens.

 

I can't comply with something that I don't take part in to any degree but it will affect my shooting and many other peoples for which there is no alternative method or equipment to which Davids response appears to be a shrug of the shoulders, hard cheese.

 

You are completely right we should all stick together or we'll all be picked off one by one.

Totally agree with your last sentence but theres not a hope in hell of this as this topic clearly demonstrates. The antis watching this forum must be laughing their heads off. I despair

Edited July 25, 2013 by spanj

[David BASC]

Of course I have never shrugged my shoulders at any shooter and said ‘hard cheese’, nor is there any ‘done deal’ on lead, nor am I looking for a scapegoat – but it’s typical I am afraid for people to cast these unfounded fly’s on the water, for what reason I am not too sure, but it certainly distracts from the bigger issue.

 

You ask Sits why not take away the ability to break the law – that’s what those who oppose us are trying to do by looking to ban lead! And regardless of what some may say about the law if shooters are seen to be breaking it then we will all pay the price.

 

So remember what I have said, there is every chance that more duck will be sampled this season and next, so please, let’s make sure we comply with the law.

 

It is important to get this message out to the inland shooters, and especially those who do duck drives and or mix duck with pheasant on drives and this is in hand.

 

Yes it’s sad that a minority can spoil it for the majority, not just in shooting but in so many walks of life.

 

David

Edited July 26, 2013 by David BASC

[mudpatten]

Gentlemen, If I might be so bold, a question for Eyeglass, wymberley,scully, A14x, kes, spanj et al,

 

Whom amongst you has signed up to, made a purchase of a badge, or donated money to the "Save lead campaign" being run by Gunsmoke?

[Kes]

Gentlemen, If I might be so bold, a question for Eyeglass, wymberley,scully, A14x, kes, spanj et al,

 

Whom amongst you has signed up to, made a purchase of a badge, or donated money to the "Save lead campaign" being run by Gunsmoke?

Hello MP in a direct answer to your question - no I havent but then I didnt know about it until he received the abuse he has on here.

 

That said there are other ways of expressing disquiet over the inevitable slide to the loss of lead and to try and promote other forms of defence than ONLY compliance.

I have signed the pledge so as not to be hypocritical as it is one way to ensure lead is not lost. Another way is to have a method of compliance that is easier and that is the Scottish approach.

The others I have mentioned as to rely on a single approach is to fail because there are powerful and intelligent forces arrayed against us. We therefore have to be smarter and first with arguments and have fall back positions crucially, and at present, I dont see it.

Sorry if that doesnt agree with your view but its mine and its not a personal criticism of David BASC, as although he tries to defend BASC and very ably, he doesnt make policy and those who do are relatively new and one acting to support the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed, these people may not have or use the 'tools' that are needed. I dont think its a time to get tender about anything - its time to get tough.

Again I stress this is a personal view, in support of nothing more than seeking ways to retain lead.

You see, i have shot a lot with steel and I dont find it the better product that others have suggested, and certainly no general substitute for everything, as has been suggested.

That answer your questions - happy to elaborate if you wish.

[al4x]

The sooner lead is banned the better it will be for our quarry , the environment and shooting's image in the publics eye. Steel will do almost anything lead will do, but many shooters cant be bothered to change over. I have been usung steel for years for wildfowl , game and pigeons and have no problem with it. But treat it like lead and you will struggle with it. You need to use the right load , shot size and choke for the job. I got rid of my old guns to bought guns that are made to handle both steel and the correct choke for the type of shooting you undertake. I can now happly take quarry as large as geese at 50 yards with no worries about wounding , indeed if you suffer from wounded birds when using steel you are shooting out of range , provided you are using the correct type and a quality brand of shell such as Gamebore , RC or Remmington.

 

Just try Gamebore steel 32gr with an open choke in no 4 or 3 and the clean kills are amazing out to 40 yards . The only time I use lead these days is when the farmers supply me with farm cartridges for pigeons and I am now finding my shots for kills is worse than when using my own steel shells. Steel is a lot faster than most lead so I am now I miss too many birds behind with lead these days.

 

Has BASc shot shooting in the foot ? No its giving shooting a chance to continue on a modern world which if we do not follow will otherwise see our sport stopped in the future. There is no longer any excuse to use lead for any type of shotgun shooting so why continue using it and damage our sport.

 

 

out of interest what would you use on fox drives Anser?

 

personally if there were ever a ban I can see a strong market for lead drippers and reloading supplies and steel empty cartridges.

Edited July 26, 2013 by al4x

[wymberley]

Gentlemen, If I might be so bold, a question for Eyeglass, wymberley,scully, A14x, kes, spanj et al,

 

Whom amongst you has signed up to, made a purchase of a badge, or donated money to the "Save lead campaign" being run by Gunsmoke?

No, you may not.

[al4x]

Gentlemen, If I might be so bold, a question for Eyeglass, wymberley,scully, A14x, kes, spanj et al,

 

Whom amongst you has signed up to, made a purchase of a badge, or donated money to the "Save lead campaign" being run by Gunsmoke?

 

 

nope but then I see it as we have to work to protect ducks to stand any chance, hence my view we can't keep shooting lead over wetlands and have to concede something to avoid a total ban and be seen to be working with the evidence that lead poisons ducks. I can't see how it can be defended when the whole point of the law was to stop poisoning, we're off on a red herring getting that wound up about possible non compliance. Any other law would have enforcement and it only takes a little effort of monitoring game dealers and fining people and we wouldn't have the problem.

[Scully]

Gentlemen, If I might be so bold, a question for Eyeglass, wymberley,scully, A14x, kes, spanj et al,

 

Whom amongst you has signed up to, made a purchase of a badge, or donated money to the "Save lead campaign" being run by Gunsmoke?

No, I haven't, but I have signed the 'compliance' pledge as run by our shooting organisations.

Let me ask you a question; are you happy with the minute number of respondents used on which the claim of non- compliance has been based and was submitted into the public domain as hard evidence of such? Bear in mind this was undertaken by a professional body. Personally I have seen more convincing statistical studies compiled by my local primary school.

[David BASC]

Thank you for signing up.

 

Remember of course that the objective of that research (2010 report) was to see if further legislation was needed – and no further legislation was forthcoming…

 

 

And of course when compliance is tested again, it’s the next set of figures we will be judged on, what level of participation in such a survey would you or your primary school suggest is warranted for the results to be valid?

[Scully]

At least 80 per cent of the membership. You wouldn't even need to go to the expense of emails either. Each member gets a BASC magazine in which the questionnaire could be printed; they could be given the option of a telephone, email or postal reply, but given the high publicity this has now achieved( nationwide exposure on the BBC) our antagonists would be very sceptical as to the honesty of respondents.

So once again we would find ourselves on the backfoot.

Perhaps if it had been done properly in the first place it would be them doing the doubting and not us.

[gunsmoke]

Hello MP in a direct answer to your question - no I havent but then I didnt know about it until he received the abuse he has on here.

 

 

 

Yes, I'm public enemy number one according the some basc staff. other members of BASC back my stand and some members of the council.

 

I feel BASC should be working for me and all shooter. I'm a shooter and Gunsmith, been in the trade for over 40 years, this threat only shows how they are now using an 'appeasement' plan. Not to stop a lead ban but to get shooters into a mind set that a lead ban is coming. I noramlly support basc. I have Robin game cooking on the basc stand at the cotswold show on my youtube channel along with chris green videos.

 

The only thing I'm having a go at BASC about is lead shot, that is because i've seen the reports, the wwt/basc report on compliance, the BASC research committee report, the PDF file of the submission to ministers eyeclass added to this treat and the letter for defra confirming the submission. The BASC appeasement plan will not work.

 

We had appeasement with the wildfowlers and look where that lead.

 

[David BASC]

OK, interesting, as in fact the figures for sample sizes to get a 95 or 99% confidence rate is way lower, and what is important is that the results are statistically valid

[Big Mat]

 

Yes, I'm public enemy number one according the some basc staff. other members of BASC back my stand and some members of the council.

 

I feel BASC should be working for me and all shooter. I'm a shooter and Gunsmith, been in the trade for over 40 years, this threat only shows how they are now using an 'appeasement' plan. Not to stop a lead ban but to get shooters into a mind set that a lead ban is coming. I noramlly support basc. I have Robin game cooking on the basc stand at the cotswold show on my youtube channel along with chris green videos.

 

The only thing I'm having a go at BASC about is lead shot, that is because i've seen the reports, the wwt/basc report on compliance, the BASC research committee report, the PDF file of the submission to ministers eyeclass added to this treat and the letter for defra confirming the submission. The BASC appeasement plan will not work.

 

We had appeasement with the wildfowlers and look where that lead.

 

We're stuffed either way, its going to happen we all know it, when it happens is another matter, what David is trying to do is to get us all to obey the law and try and stop it from happening.

 

You cannot blaim BASC for the compliance report, they were asked to do the study, they did it. The people to blame are the idiots who like to flout the law.

 

Why can we not all unite and fight for the one cause that matters to us all, shooting!

[eyeglass]

Thank you for signing up.

 

Remember of course that the objective of that research (2010 report) was to see if further legislation was needed – and no further legislation was forthcoming…

 

 

And of course when compliance is tested again, it’s the next set of figures we will be judged on, what level of participation in such a survey would you or your primary school suggest is warranted for the results to be valid?

 

 

 

It is possible for organised sock puppetry to ensure that the key point on this thread is missed or buried.

 

We know that the compliance pledge is a bogus enterprise based on a bogus report to set up the LAG.

 

The key point is that the ‘last report’ (WWT/BASC 2010 report on compliance) was a piece of propaganda cooked up between BASC and the WWT. It findings are erroneous to the point of being fraudulent.

 

If a check on compliance is to take place again it must be independently and professionally carried out so that all of its data and methods are transparent and can be checked back to source. It must not be driven by political objectives.

 

Who will guarantee that? Could you trust anyone at BASC to do so? We know we cannot trust the WWT.

[David BASC]

So eyglass you have taken this up with DEFRA?

 

 

Are you saying now it was not DFRRA that commissioned the reports but a secret plan by BASC and WWT? To what objective in your world?

 

 

Rather than just posting a few times on here your claims of fraudulent action and propaganda have to taken this up with DEFRA?

 

 

No? - why are we not surprised.

[mrmints]

Personally, as someone new to the sport and a BASC member I'm worried about a lead shot ban.

 

However, given that my membership fee's contribute to the wages of BASC staff, David included, I'd rather he spent more time on dealing with the problem than having to repeat himself endlessly on here (I appreciate that he does seem to do a lot of responding out of office hours!). He has said in almost every post that if people don't comply then there will be a ban on lead. Therefore, if we do comply there won't be a ban on lead (?). Simple, I will comply!!

 

Also, I would hope, that given that the ban on lead would most affect the rich, H&H shooting folks who some think are to blame, they will also comply so as to avoid losing the use of their wonderful, handed down lead shooters.

 

Chris

[al4x]

Therefore, if we do comply there won't be a ban on lead (?). Simple, I will comply!!

 

 

 

If you believe that..............

[Scully]

 

OK, interesting, as in fact the figures for sample sizes to get a 95 or 99% confidence rate is way lower, and what is important is that the results are statistically valid[/

If the results are statistically valid as peer reviewed and as a professionally valid parameter then it simply states even more just what a complete load of tosh this method of testing is!

In response to another post,regarding the rich having more to lose with the introduction of a lead ban, the cost of suitable nontoxic alternatives to lead is not something they would regard as anything more than a mere inconvenience.

But as someone else has stated, we are where we are now, and have to work our way through this farce;but past events don't instil me with confidence unfortunately.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scully