richg Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 I have been shooting steel on pigeons for three years now and my mate reloads all our shells, just lately we have been working with Stephen Dales at clay game reloaders and he has a fibre wad that we are testing. it is very good with the correct powder. we shoot 27grams of 5 shot, that gives a pellet count equivalent to about 32gram in lead. It patterns tight but is a hell of a killer, its also very fast. The results of our tests will be made public soon in a popular shooting paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIDES EDGE Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Richg these sound fantastic just what we are looking for! Taking the fibre wad system a bit further would it not be better for the enviroment to load all cartridges with them ie lead as well. I do not like leaving plastic wads all over the field but do like the perfomance they give, have you tried any lead loads with the fibre cups or are you finding the steel that good that you dont feel the need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) Does anyone foresee a problem with these soft fibre/paper wad cups?.....for example: firing a 2 3/4 steel shot cartridge utilising these cups through a 3 1/2" chambered S/A? I imagine the wad cup could easily break up on firing whilst bridging the gap between the cartridge mouth and entering the end of the forcing cone (into the barrel proper!)? if this does happen and the steel shot comes into contact with the bore? significant damage (scoring) would occur to the gun bore.......ever considered why plastic wads designed to shoot steel shot are so thick? Just a thought!! Edited April 14, 2014 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 they are tough. cook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Tough and fast with low pressures and I am interested once everyone else has tested them for damaging the bore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 done alot of testing with these fsc and yes they are good easy to use slit and trim ( if needed ) i have loaded from 26g upto 40g of steel and had some very good results back on them i all so have had a day on pigeons and a driven day shooting the light 26gram load and they killed well even at the driven pheasants getting pushed over the vally i was using 3.25mm as i like a good size shot when using steel. i am just doing a couple of 3" and 3-1/2" loads with them ready for the season. kent they are quiet tough stiff and you need a new stanley to cut them half deasent and split x4 ways. and as for damage i have picked up a couple of shot wads and yes they have shot corn marks on them but have NOT gone through the shot cup to damage the barrels I have been shooting steel on pigeons for three years now and my mate reloads all our shells, just lately we have been working with Stephen Dales at clay game reloaders and he has a fibre wad that we are testing. it is very good with the correct powder. we shoot 27grams of 5 shot, that gives a pellet count equivalent to about 32gram in lead. It patterns tight but is a hell of a killer, its also very fast. The results of our tests will be made public soon in a popular shooting paper. What did you think to the 26gram load ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 A few things to cover here. As regards shot corns coming through the wad and damaging the barrel, i have yet to see any evidence of barrel damage, and just for the exercise and i must stress DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME my friend has fired many steel loads through an old Remi barrel with just flat plastic wads "no cup" and we can see no damage whatsoever, but i stress that is not a scientific test. At present we are testing the fibre cup wad and it is giving excellent results, we have fired thousands of steel loads with plaswads and with the right powder they are mustard but they pattern tight, and this myth about reduced velocity does not hold water in my humble opinion, we regularly kill pigeons out to 60yds and beyond, and can prove it. I know ballisticaly steel is not as dense as lead and should not carry as far, but we kill pigeons out to distances we would equally expect to kill with lead. I use half choke in a Remi auto and if the pigeon is out to fifty yards and in the pattern IT IS DEAD no messing. We have used many thousands of steel loads to date and they are 100% effective on pigeons, we intend to give them a full test on game next season. As regards a wad breaking up in a 3 1/2" chamber i cannot comment but will look into it. Something we do find with steel is that we rarely find pellets in the birds, they seem to go in one side and out the other, we put this down to lack of deformation when they strike. I know many out there are skeptical, i was too, the first time i used steel ten years ago i swore i would never ever shoot a duck again if that was all we had to use. but great strides are being made, and if "heaven forbid" lead was banned, shooting would continue in most of the forms we know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Steel is a good killer if you have got the speed and the right size pellet i shoot my steel through 1/2 choke also and will be shooting all of this fowling season with the fiber shot cup in 70mm up to 89mm with the bigger shot 4-5mm shot. As like you richg i don"t often find shot corns in any thing shot i thing last season i shot roughly 26 geese some were a good way off and i could count on one hand how many corns were found in the birds which is a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 A few things to cover here. As regards shot corns coming through the wad and damaging the barrel, i have yet to see any evidence of barrel damage, and just for the exercise and i must stress DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME my friend has fired many steel loads through an old Remi barrel with just flat plastic wads "no cup" and we can see no damage whatsoever, but i stress that is not a scientific test. At present we are testing the fibre cup wad and it is giving excellent results, we have fired thousands of steel loads with plaswads and with the right powder they are mustard but they pattern tight, and this myth about reduced velocity does not hold water in my humble opinion, we regularly kill pigeons out to 60yds and beyond, and can prove it. I know ballisticaly steel is not as dense as lead and should not carry as far, but we kill pigeons out to distances we would equally expect to kill with lead. I use half choke in a Remi auto and if the pigeon is out to fifty yards and in the pattern IT IS DEAD no messing. We have used many thousands of steel loads to date and they are 100% effective on pigeons, we intend to give them a full test on game next season. As regards a wad breaking up in a 3 1/2" chamber i cannot comment but will look into it. Something we do find with steel is that we rarely find pellets in the birds, they seem to go in one side and out the other, we put this down to lack of deformation when they strike. I know many out there are skeptical, i was too, the first time i used steel ten years ago i swore i would never ever shoot a duck again if that was all we had to use. but great strides are being made, and if "heaven forbid" lead was banned, shooting would continue in most of the forms we know it. rich, in America, shooters were concerned about steel shot, many reloaders over there got a standard lead recipe and just replaced the lead with the volume of steel. not really much happened, apart from the odd damaged barrel. that still stands today, if you get a lead recipe and replace it with the same volume of steel, then it most probbly would be safe pressures. i`m not advocating doing that, but i`ve heard it a few times and from different sources. even guys tested them the pressures were ok, but the damage to barrels were apparent. some guys just bought cheap baikals and carried on loading, not really caring about the damage, because they are easily replaced. the lead / steel issues is simple, when they replaced the volume of lead, with the "lead" volume of steel, is like replacing 28 grams lead with 18grams of steel. thats something i dont like, but there is a fat lot i can do about it. as for economics, thats really cheap, and the speeds were really fast ! the shotcups are tough and wouldnt hesitate using 4s i use a pair of metal snips, to cut the ones i was given by PC1. i originally thought they were plastic, but its card based thats obviously been processed, its rock hard. they would have to perform really well, currently theyd be expensive per cup and per shot / powder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Ok lads can you get some and find out what steel loads you can make up please. what loads do you want to put in them and case size ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIDES EDGE Posted April 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Pest control1 I have had discussions with Gamebore and they say that they can only get 24 g of 5 shot in a 70mm case what we were looking for was 30 or 32 g in 5 or 4 shot in a 70mm case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Pest control1 I have had discussions with Gamebore and they say that they can only get 24 g of 5 shot in a 70mm case what we were looking for was 30 or 32 g in 5 or 4 shot in a 70mm case. Surely they can get more than that in. I have plenty of Gamebore 32gm 3 in steel. What would you want to be shooting with that load? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Pest control1 I have had discussions with Gamebore and they say that they can only get 24 g of 5 shot in a 70mm case what we were looking for was 30 or 32 g in 5 or 4 shot in a 70mm case. it all depends on what and how they are doing it but you can get more than that in. All the testing that i have done has been with 3.25mm i will have to have a look in my book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIDES EDGE Posted April 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Sorry that should have been 65mm 2.75" case length still havent got the hang of this newfangled metric stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Sorry that should have been 65mm 2.75" case length still havent got the hang of this newfangled metric stuff. Pretty sure 65mm is 2.5" and 2.75" is 70mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 its the cushion wadding thats the issue too and the powdercard. thats alot of volume ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Sorry that should have been 65mm 2.75" case length still havent got the hang of this newfangled metric stuff. yes in a 65 mm case your not going to get much in unless you finish with a rto stick with the 70mm (2,75") and longer i know which cartaridges your talking about as i have some that i got cheap to look at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 I may get some of the fibre cups for the 10 bore to load up and pattern, will post results if i do. If they work well i may be inclined to move over to them instead of plastic. I've never been a fan of shooting plastic wads all over the place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 I have not had much to do with the mighty 10 but i will say they pattern prity well in my baikal 12g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 So are you saying that after twenty years there is still no viable alternative to a Lead shot cartridge that has not conclusively be proven to be as harmful to waterfowl as some would try to have us believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 So are you saying that after twenty years there is still no viable alternative to a Lead shot cartridge that has not conclusively be proven to be as harmful to waterfowl as some would try to have us believe? Eh? What on earth are you on about? We are discussing the use of fibre shot cups in loading steel here, a sensible discussion and you come out with that gibberish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 I am on about the none availability of an economic alternative to Lead ! This thread is about the difficulty of obtaining said alternative . Or like most do you just want to bury your head in the sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) I am on about the none availability of an economic alternative to Lead ! This thread is about the difficulty of obtaining said alternative . Or like most do you just want to bury your head in the sand? No, this thread is about the availability of fibre wad steel cartridges, and then digressed into the reloading of fibre wad steel cartridges. My head is not buried in the sand, however like most on this thread i am dealing with the situation we find ourselves in and trying to make the best loads. Steel cartridges can be had for the same price as a box of premium lead cartridges, but you are limited to plastic wad. Edited April 20, 2014 by Big Mat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Mat, I hate Steel! I also dislike inefficient Lead alternatives. The whole thing about this ongoing saga is that if we put a gun up at a creature we wish to mortally wound it ! Kill it! To use inefficient ineffective alternatives is a disgrace to mankind and we really should be ashamed that after twenty years of voluntary restraint we still have not come up with a viable alternative. The OP is trying to resolve an issue he has over farm land where the owner wants a biodegradable wad. Now back on track . Whatever happened to the degradable wads patented by an East Anglian company made from starch from Potatoes? Did they hit manufacturing or cost issues? Is it such a big issue to manufacture an alternative to Plastic / Polymer wads? Edited April 20, 2014 by Salopian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Whatever happened to the degradable wads patented by an East Anglian company made from starch from Potatoes? Did they hit manufacturing or cost issues? Is it such a big issue to manufacture an alternative to Plastic / Polymer wads? I recall reading about them but i have never seen them for sale or advertised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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