neillfrbs Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 as the title suggests I am thinking about using my beretta a400 semi auto this year for a 4 days driven game shoot ,will only put 2 cartridges in it at any one time , what do you think ,or should I stick to the side by side and be old fashioned . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essex Keeper Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 (edited) Side x side best way to go but each to there own Good read http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/117054-are-semi-autos-still-widely-not-accepted-at-your-local-pheasant-s/ Edited September 21, 2013 by m2tyj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebarrels Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 Stick with the sxs i also prefer to use a semi-auto,but i think for a driven day a sxs would be more suitable BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decoy1979 Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 It would be best to enquire in advance with the shoot captain/keeper etc as they may not allow you to use it anyway. It is easy to say I'll only load two and then in the heat of the moment start stuffing three also, stick to the sxs and you can't go far wrong in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 (edited) Using 3 isn't the issue, if they are really rough shoots they might let you but on anything with a proper keeper most will tell you to go away till you come back with another gun Edited September 21, 2013 by al4x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholiath Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 Never understood this prejudice? Is it because they don't look the part? Or are they considered dangerous? On many occasions I've seen dangerous gun handling with thousands of pounds worth of sxs ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillfrbs Posted September 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 keeper don't mind as long as your safe ,and only put 2 cartridges in at any one time. have shot there the last few years ,just shoot better with the semi use it all year round .its more what the other guns think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Using 3 isn't the issue, if they are really rough shoots they might let you but on anything with a proper keeper most will tell you to go away till you come back with another gun No they won't. I keepered on a very prestigious estate in the mid 90's and it wasn't anything to do with the keepers (including the head keeper) but whoever had bought the days shooting. When the owner (a Duke) had his own days I remember two of his Italian guests using semi-auto's. Yes it does raise eyebrows and I'm not keen on them on driven days but some people save up for a long time for a driven day and maybe only have this chance one or twice in a lifetime so why should they have to have to fork out for a different gun for these odd occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Never understood this prejudice? Is it because they don't look the part? Or are they considered dangerous? On many occasions I've seen dangerous gun handling with thousands of pounds worth of sxs ! Well said, due to arthritis and past/ongoing surgery, I myself have to use a semi-auto in order to carry on shooting in any capacity. Any experienced shooting man will tell you that it is the persons conduct whilst 'in the line' that he should be judged on, not the weapon he happens to be using at the time. Regards Remmyman Edited September 22, 2013 by remmyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 The only true reason is snobbery , safety is not a factor as I have beaten , picked up and shot on shoots where gun handling and safe shooting was so bad complaints were made to the shoot captain and unless the issue was addressed they would be without any assistance as far as beating and picking up we're concerned . These were all seasoned sxs shooters but had a total disregard for the saftey of those around them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 An important point has been overlooked here. With a sxs or o/u when the gun is open it is plain to see that it either has or has not got cartridges in it. I am sure that this is not the case with a semi automatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 The only true reason is snobbery , safety is not a factor as I have beaten , picked up and shot on shoots where gun handling and safe shooting was so bad complaints were made to the shoot captain and unless the issue was addressed they would be without any assistance as far as beating and picking up we're concerned . These were all seasoned sxs shooters but had a total disregard for the saftey of those around them Over the years I've had to tell guns about safety, sometimes the same people from one year to the next. 8 safe semi-auto's are way better than 1 unsafe sxs or ou. I found that we used to get people that had made a lot of money and decided to take up shooting and apart from a couple of tuition sessions had never handled a gun before and with that knew nothing about safety. Because they hadn't been brought into shooting as youngsters with airguns etc with parents/family showing safe practices they were quite often the ones to keep an eye on. Don't get me wrong not all were like this and you still get quite a few who have shot all there lives and should know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangford wildfowler Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 You should be grand as long as your safe with, also I find them slightly easier to shoot with because they only have one barrell to point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 An important point has been overlooked here. With a sxs or o/u when the gun is open it is plain to see that it either has or has not got cartridges in it. I am sure that this is not the case with a semi automatic. There are plenty of devices such as flags/ribbons in fluorescent colours that can be place into the breach showing an empty gun. I always keep a few of them so if a semi-auto gun was to turn up they would be given a breach flag an be requested to use it, problem solved. I've yet to meet someone who took offence at this request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 There are plenty of devices such as flags/ribbons in fluorescent colours that can be place into the breach showing an empty gun. I always keep a few of them so if a semi-auto gun was to turn up they would be given a breach flag an be requested to use it, problem solved. I've yet to meet someone who took offence at this request. Well said, you beat me to it! I've also lost count of the times when picking up, a 'gun' has walked over to me whilst carrying his gun quite correctly 'broken' over his arm but still having a shell in both barrels! the end of drive whistle has been blown minutes before which should mean 'end of drive, stop shooting and UNLOAD' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Surely the gun would be bagged when not in use anyway so why do you need a flag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Surely the gun would be bagged when not in use anyway so why do you need a flag? Not always. Some drives are done back to back almost so sometimes it's a case of waiting for the beaters to get into position so you wouldn't bag your gun. Once the whistle has been blown for the end of the drive, guns should be unloaded and broken so that's why a flag is needed for a semi-auto. The flag should be inserted before the gun is bagged anyway so when it is taken from its slip it can be seen to be safe. Most guns will stand on there pegs with there guns un bagged and broken and cannot insert cartridges until instructed so a flag is needed so as to let others see it isn't loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Guns them selves are not dangerous its the people holding them, if someone is unsafe with a break barrelled gun how much more unsafe would he be with a semi. Do u really think there going to cycle the bolt and reload every time they would normally break the gun Yes the flags are good but u can't see them from that far away, while a broken gun can be seen as safe from a long way away. I do allow semi's on our wee shoot but only for standing not beating or walked up and must be slipped whereas i actually prefer normal guns to be unslipped but broken and empty as can clearly be seen from a long distance to be safe, u don't know for sure a slipped gun is safe, really should be thou It is a different thing for health reasons and i think most keepers/owners would allow them if u asked permission in advance I have lost count off the ammount of times i have been handed a semi with the bolt closed when crosing a fence/obsticles and this is on fox shoots or out with hounds. A lot off the boys don't even put a shell in sticking out off the bolt, 1 estate i don't go to foxes any more not worth the risk I got rid off my semi as don't like the saftey aspect, when on your own i found it all to easy/tempting to jump a fence or small obsticle bend down to check traps and leave it with 1 up spout rather than cycle the bolt, would never dream of doing that with a break barrel gun Also on my shoot we have some walked up and shoot some drives in the line it really would not be safe with a semi, very easy and relatively safely to walk with a broken gun and still have time to close it and shoot any bird flushed, with a semi if u fell or tripped which can easyily happen on some rough ground the gun barrell could end up pointing anywhere I also didn't like how far it threw the cartridges as hard to pick them up esp if walking up shooting or duck flights My final problem is the lack of an automatic safety catch, i have only ever shot SxS since i was a boy so always had an auto saftey, found it a worry and had to keep checking i had put saftey back on, and i know some clay guns do not have an auto saftey but i do not think it is a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Guns them selves are not dangerous its the people holding them, if someone is unsafe with a break barrelled gun how much more unsafe would he be with a semi. Do u really think there going to cycle the bolt and reload every time they would normally break the gun Yes the flags are good but u can't see them from that far away, while a broken gun can be seen as safe from a long way away. I do allow semi's on our wee shoot but only for standing not beating or walked up and must be slipped whereas i actually prefer normal guns to be unslipped but broken and empty as can clearly be seen from a long distance to be safe, u don't know for sure a slipped gun is safe, really should be thou It is a different thing for health reasons and i think most keepers/owners would allow them if u asked permission in advance I have lost count off the ammount of times i have been handed a semi with the bolt closed when crosing a fence/obsticles and this is on fox shoots or out with hounds. A lot off the boys don't even put a shell in sticking out off the bolt, 1 estate i don't go to foxes any more not worth the risk I got rid off my semi as don't like the saftey aspect, when on your own i found it all to easy/tempting to jump a fence or small obsticle bend down to check traps and leave it with 1 up spout rather than cycle the bolt, would never dream of doing that with a break barrel gun Also on my shoot we have some walked up and shoot some drives in the line it really would not be safe with a semi, very easy and relatively safely to walk with a broken gun and still have time to close it and shoot any bird flushed, with a semi if u fell or tripped which can easyily happen on some rough ground the gun barrell could end up pointing anywhere I also didn't like how far it threw the cartridges as hard to pick them up esp if walking up shooting or duck flights My final problem is the lack of an automatic safety catch, i have only ever shot SxS since i was a boy so always had an auto saftey, found it a worry and had to keep checking i had put saftey back on, and i know some clay guns do not have an auto saftey but i do not think it is a good idea I don't like the fact that some people turn up with these clay guns without an auto safety, at least you know the semi hasn't got one (not much help I know). I don't have any problems seeing a flag from distance but I cannot see if a broken gun hasn't got any cartridges in it from a small distance, I only assume it is unloaded. I know that it's broken and should be safe but I don't know what sort of person is holding it. In general a broken gun should be seen as safer than a semi-auto but in the end it all comes down to how well the user was taught and practices gun safety. I have always used SxS and OU but recent back problems have made a semi-auto more user friendly for me. 1 thing that does bug me is looking for spent cases, what a pain in the ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Aye i pretty much agree with everthing u said above, i just have used a SxS all my life and could not get my head round the difference. Just felt so much safer and comfier with my old sxs I do althou semi's on our wee shoot but i would rather not have them (the only reason i allow them is a mates mate used to give us a hand a fair bit so only fair to give him a few days, only had a semi) Surely if gun is standing with action facing the oppisate direction it could be fairly hard to see any flag. ON the hounds/foxes i was only 1 with a flag, 1 pack most all put there shells in side on the other almost all the bolts were closed all the time and passing them over stuff, not good so stopped going. But there is a safety issue it is not just snobbery. I totally understand where ur coming from on the health front and i doubt any keeper would have a problem if u asked first and explained the position, bottom line if ur safe with a SxS/ou u will also be safe with a Semi but if ur not really safe with a normal gun a semi is only going to make matters worse. All that loading cycling bolt with ur hands in the general area of the trigger when the safety may or may not be on Finally i seen a few comments about only putting 2 in below, is it not against ur conditions to use a S1 firearm/shotgun for game no matter how many/few shells u put in it? Meant to add i always thought about taping a bit of ribbon/rubber etc to the top rib that would foul the spent ejected cases but never got round to experimenting with it. Might be akward gettin something that will not be a pain when loading/unloading Edited September 22, 2013 by scotslad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 My point is, it's not the gun but the man holding it. If your not safe with a sxs it will be worse with a semi auto but should we tolerate unsafe shots..........NO I shoot clays and game. No one shoots game with me with a semi and I have issues with a few over safety. Several shoot clays with me with semi autos and I have no issues at all with them , they are all ultra safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Aye i pretty much agree with everthing u said above, i just have used a SxS all my life and could not get my head round the difference. Just felt so much safer and comfier with my old sxs I do althou semi's on our wee shoot but i would rather not have them (the only reason i allow them is a mates mate used to give us a hand a fair bit so only fair to give him a few days, only had a semi) Surely if gun is standing with action facing the oppisate direction it could be fairly hard to see any flag. ON the hounds/foxes i was only 1 with a flag, 1 pack most all put there shells in side on the other almost all the bolts were closed all the time and passing them over stuff, not good so stopped going. But there is a safety issue it is not just snobbery. I totally understand where ur coming from on the health front and i doubt any keeper would have a problem if u asked first and explained the position, bottom line if ur safe with a SxS/ou u will also be safe with a Semi but if ur not really safe with a normal gun a semi is only going to make matters worse. All that loading cycling bolt with ur hands in the general area of the trigger when the safety may or may not be on Finally i seen a few comments about only putting 2 in below, is it not against ur conditions to use a S1 firearm/shotgun for game no matter how many/few shells u put in it? Meant to add i always thought about taping a bit of ribbon/rubber etc to the top rib that would foul the spent ejected cases but never got round to experimenting with it. Might be akward gettin something that will not be a pain when loading/unloading Totally agree. Having been a keeper for a good few years I've never personally had a problem with people turning up with semi-autos. I know what you mean with people not passing safe guns over obstacles etc and your right that some people get a bit complacent because of the 'hassle' of unloading semi-autos. Only one thing though, standard 3 shot semi's are not S1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 As for the 3 shots - you wont get four birds, seen this with a loader and a pair of s/s ejectors, its a non starter on amount fired / killed. As for broken gun being safe that's a crock, fall and they can still go off, slam the barrels to the stock and the sears can let go perhaps adding a beater to the bag. you will find it hard to load a semi without it pointing skywards or the deck. It seems that closing guns barrels pointed at the floor has been forgotten these days. Neither the semi or break action can be seen safe - the only safe gun is one seen and proven UNLOADED. It is tradition and yes a little snobbery, just like stack barrels being frowned on it will disappear in time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashman1 Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 No end of otb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Any gun should be in a slip between drives anyway, IMO. There are plenty of devices such as flags/ribbons in fluorescent colours that can be place into the breach showing an empty gun. I always keep a few of them so if a semi-auto gun was to turn up they would be given a breach flag an be requested to use it, problem solved. I've yet to meet someone who took offence at this request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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