Guest stevo Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 im with vipa all the way , , crack on ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) This is disgraceful. Look at around 1 minute 30 seconds in, literally releasing birds. Edited October 22, 2013 by demonwolf444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Vipa, you are correct in the basic principles , birds being reared to be shot. However, you are one dimensional , in that, it is all you have to say on the subject. There is a world of difference in how a driven shoot is conducted with 8 guns placed in advantageous positions to have birds driven over them, to birds thrown in the air over a large number of guns who all shoot at the same bird. A 40% return on a driven shoot is an acceptable return for birds put down, here, in this video we have 100% return on the birds launched . You say you dislike driven shooting , preferring to shoot wild game. I cannot see the difference in taking a life that has been bred for that purpose, to taking a life of an animal born in the wild. If you are willing to take a life I find it hypocritical to condem others that do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 each country to there own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) Vipa, you are correct in the basic principles , birds being reared to be shot. However, you are one dimensional , in that, it is all you have to say on the subject. There is a world of difference in how a driven shoot is conducted with 8 guns placed in advantageous positions to have birds driven over them, to birds thrown in the air over a large number of guns who all shoot at the same bird. A 40% return on a driven shoot is an acceptable return for birds put down, here, in this video we have 100% return on the birds launched . You say you dislike driven shooting , preferring to shoot wild game. I cannot see the difference in taking a life that has been bred for that purpose, to taking a life of an animal born in the wild. If you are willing to take a life I find it hypocritical to condem others that do the same. I think you are missing the 'one dimensional point.' Once you have taken the concsious, moral decision to give life to an animal so you can then kill it for fun, you waive all and any rights to stand on any moral high ground and criticise others in their methods... nothing, absolutely nothing could be more morally repugnant than that initial decision and move to action... I could give you loads of analogies but your blinkers would filter them out! And if you cannot see the difference between wild animals and those bred for killing for fun then I would suggest your moral compass is beyond repair! Edited October 22, 2013 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 So doesn't UK game shooting involve rearing animals with the sole intention of shooting them for fun then? No it doesn't really. The statement is correct only in the same way that we are all blood thirsty maniacs that enjoy killing animals for kicks, all depends on how you put it and context. It is how I would expect the tabloids to portray what game shooting is really all about. If shooting them for fun was the sole purpose of the exercise then I'm sure various landed gentry, not to mention the less fortunates who pay thousands for the privilege would just buy a few live Rhode Island Reds past their prime laying duties and drive up to some scenic corner of their permissions and proceed to pepper the things to death from 20 to 85 yards in between taking lunch and a drop of port. It would be fantastically cheap compared to what it is now. Now I'm sure you DO know how game shooting is conducted here, the many thousands of hours that go into all aspects of it, the preservation of habitat, the gainful employment, the millions generated in foreign currency, the hotels, clothing, associated equipment sales, use of end product as food, preservation of working dog lines and livelihood for their trainers, brief enjoyment of the countryside for those denied it most of their lives, .....................so I won't get too carried away listing them. The killing of pheasants is a tiny part of the bigger picture, unlike the wholesale target practice / slaughter of what we have seen on that video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Do you eat beef , pork , lamb , chicken ? Are you willing for someone else to breed for the table so that you can enjoy ? If that's the case I think you are a hypocrite. Your problem seems to be with the pleasure in shooting driven game, do you not have pleasure in shooting wild game ? Explain the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) Do you eat beef , pork , lamb , chicken ? Are you willing for someone else to breed for the table so that you can enjoy ? If that's the case I think you are a hypocrite. Your problem seems to be with the pleasure in shooting driven game, do you not have pleasure in shooting wild game ? Explain the difference. As I say... I fear you are missing my point entirely... This is nothing to do with being a veggie or a carnivor, farmed animals are bred for the table, not so the chaps in the slaughterhouse can have a laugh shooting them after they are chased accross the field! As an aside, I find the whole abatoir system rather sinister and that is the main reason I started stalking.. I take my own free range meat.. I knew how it had lived, what condition it was in and that it had as swift and painless a dispatch as possible and I know how it was treated after it had died.. I do not send deer to the game dealer, I do not stalk just for the hell of it and if the deer in my crosshairs is not destined for my or my familiy's freezers then the safety catch stays on and I savour the moment! And of course I enjoy it.. I wouldn't do it if I didn't! Edited October 22, 2013 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikingRebel Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) Meh seem just as bad over here just swap the hi vis for tweed and semi for sbs. Many a hypocrite on this forum Not a fan of driven shoots myself, but at least it requires slightly more skill and tactics than the nonsense in that video. For the record, I have nothing against people who do enjoy driven shooting and I fully support and defend their right to do so. It's just not my cup of tea, personally. Plus tweed doesn't suit me. Edited October 22, 2013 by VikingRebel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdog Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Vipa, you are correct in the basic principles , birds being reared to be shot. However, you are one dimensional , in that, it is all you have to say on the subject. There is a world of difference in how a driven shoot is conducted with 8 guns placed in advantageous positions to have birds driven over them, to birds thrown in the air over a large number of guns who all shoot at the same bird. A 40% return on a driven shoot is an acceptable return for birds put down, here, in this video we have 100% return on the birds launched . You say you dislike driven shooting , preferring to shoot wild game. I cannot see the difference in taking a life that has been bred for that purpose, to taking a life of an animal born in the wild. If you are willing to take a life I find it hypocritical to condem others that do the same. Bang on, if vipa got rid of the chip on his shoulder about driven game shooting he may learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Nothing is so depressing as those who kill for food and still want to be 'holier than thou', except perhaps those who cannot admit they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I find it amazing (and quite sad as a human being) that people refuse to see the difference here.. Its not a chip on my shoulder! How would you feel if I started farming and rearing deer so that when they were mature I could line up 4 or 5 rifles at between 1 and 200 yards and then scare the deer into running accross the line, the intention being of course to see if any of said rifles could hit said deer.. I will charge say, £200 per beast and at the end of the day the rifles can then take a brace if they want.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Nothing is so depressing as those who kill for food and still want to be 'holier than thou', except perhaps those who cannot admit they are wrong. Not trying to be holier than thou Kes.. my viewpoint on this has never waivered.. Killing for food and killing for fun are bedfellows.... breeding living targets is something completely different.. and as for admitting I'm wrong!? there is absolutely nothing that I have been factually wrong about! Morals are morals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMMER BURT Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 im with vipa all the way , , crack on ! +1 also for vipa's post's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Just to add... something in VikingRebel's post made me think.. Those jumping on my posts are doing so from the standpoint that I am somehow 'anti' driven shooting... if that's what you think then look back over my posts.. I would never criticise or condemn anyone for persuing their passtime and would gladly defend their right to do so... my beef is not with driven shooting it is... really don't want to repeat myself again.. post 56 2nd paragraph sums up what I am trying to say so please stop trying to pick a fight for and against shooting pheasents.. that's not where I am coming from at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srspower Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 So much emotional rubbish here. Sure this is 'unsporting' but are the birds treated in a worse way than normal driven shoots? No. Does this still generate loads of money for conservation? Yes. Look people go to Africa and do canned shooting ie: an animal is bred and virtually brought out for them to shoot, sure its 'sick' to you and me but the animal isn't treated any worse and the income generated means huge areas of land become areas of conservation backed up by the dollar rather than good intentions. This means areas once plagued by poachers taking rhino etc are now defeated by rangers in helicopters with state of the art weapons. Take your emotions and feelings of fair play out of it and look at the facts and its not so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayDT10 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 If you kill stuff for pleasure which I mostly do you can't jumped on people's backs for doing it differently , them pheasants being thrown of the tower suffer as much as one being pushed out of a wood in the uk. I didn't feel that what they were doing was cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 So much emotional rubbish here. Sure this is 'unsporting' but are the birds treated in a worse way than normal driven shoots? No. Take your emotions and feelings of fair play out of it and look at the facts and its not so bad. No ? You seriously cannot see that being thrown by hand over waiting guns with semi auotmatics is incomparable to game shooting over here ? It isn't about emotions since I agree the birds die either way, it is the grotesque lack of respect and treating live birds as targets that means it's overstepped the moral line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Not trying to be holier than thou Kes.. my viewpoint on this has never waivered.. Killing for food and killing for fun are bedfellows.... breeding living targets is something completely different.. and as for admitting I'm wrong!? there is absolutely nothing that I have been factually wrong about! Morals are morals! Morals are personal they are not absolute truths dont forget. Breeding to kill is what we do to chickens - shooting is a far more humane way, if done effectively, than having your throat cut whilst hanging upside down. I eat what I shoot and the 'living target' comment is perhaps designed to be rather 'spicy'. Perhaps you dont eat chicken, pork, rearing outdoors is a bit like pheasants. I'd rather replace what I shoot, or top-up the local environment with endangered native species like greys as a sideline. I know a stalker who has a business selling venison, he keeps a few beasts so if he's short of venison, he can use his reared stock - he doesnt shout at them to kill them but then its part of his livelihood. It behoves us well to know our moral compass is not the same as others and that it is perhaps more reasonable to allow others the discretion we may not allow ourselves. As per the US, my discretion doesnt stretch that far ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Back to your post 56 "breeding to kill for fun", Isnt it why all huntsmen and shooters offer thanks and respect to their quarry whether wild or reared ? I have to say also that killing wild animals can be a bit repugnant too - how much for a rhino trophy, or one of the really large african antelope, lion with a bow. A buffalo because its called the black death and you want some of that. I'll stick to pheasants and a small driven shoot but at least the others are paying and (hopefully) thereby supporting conservation of plains game in Africa. Maybe I should go for a dove hunt in Argentina - they may be driven but they are wild and not bred to kill for fun.. Come on lets agree to differ and remain on good terms - all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srspower Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 No ? You seriously cannot see that being thrown by hand over waiting guns with semi auotmatics is incomparable to game shooting over here ? It isn't about emotions since I agree the birds die either way, it is the grotesque lack of respect and treating live birds as targets that means it's overstepped the moral line. No I said it was no more cruel, which is true. In the same way a person doing canned hunting isn't cruel as the animal is treated well and despatched cleanly. Anything beyond that is merely our own problem, the animal doesn't know any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRNDL Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Good topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 treating live birds as targets that means it's overstepped the moral line. This is exactly how an anti sees driven shooting; treating live birds as targets for 'sport', because no matter how you try to dress it up, a major part of any driven day consists of this. Why people are so afraid to admit this is beyond me. Are you so ashamed of what you're doing that you have to try and justify it as something else? It's canned hunting for ***** sake! I am in a local driven syndicate and a few friends and myself also have our own rough shoot on which we put down ex-layers. We don't have drives as such, just a big walked up shoot.We enjoy it thoroughly. Unlike some, I don't feel I have to try and justify what I do under the guise of 'sport'. I'm doing nothing wrong nor illegal, nor could I give a stuff about those who despise me for what I do. What was shown in the video in question doesn't appeal to me as it appears to lack most of the aspects I enjoy as part of a driven shoot. In fact, from the footage, it would appear the only thing it has in common with a driven shoot is the birds being deliberately presented towards waiting guns. I can't honestly see the appeal, but the end result is exactly the same....formerly captive birds being killed for entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think if you take the time to explain to a group of anti's the realities of game shooting and then show them round a shoot so they can see the work and preparation followed by a day out in the field from pub meet to dinner afters....................and then show them a chuck em and have at it day, they will see a moral difference, I really really believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think if you take the time to explain to a group of anti's the realities of game shooting and then show them round a shoot so they can see the work and preparation followed by a day out in the field from pub meet to dinner afters....................and then show them a chuck em and have at it day, they will see a moral difference, I really really believe that. I've no doubt they'll see the difference, but if you believe it will alter the fact that they will still regard what you do as killing for 'sport' then frankly you're deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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