Mandela died

[shakari]

Gimlet is quite right about the Chinese.

 

Try taking a trip to Uganda and travelling to the Karamoja which is on the Sudanese border and one of those areas where the UK Govt recommend be avoided and see how their mining operations are stuffing up an area where Bell used to hunt endless elephants. Look at the pollution and destruction and lack of game and it'll take your breath away.

 

Let me give you another example of the Belgian Congo: They've had more than 50 years and endless foreign aid to get things right and yet can't succeed in putting a single brick on top of another and then look at Germany & Japan who at the end of WWII couldn't feed their own people, had lost a large part of their working population, had to pay endless war reparations and had no foreign aid to help them....... then wind the clock forward 50 years from then and see how successful they had become!

 

If Europe and the USA can achieve these things with less, why can't Africa do it with considerably more?

Edited December 7, 2013 by shakari

[shakari]

From my friend's FB page:

 

Here are some excellent comments on the motives behind the hunting ban in Botswana by Dr. Clay Wilson, a respected veterinary surgeon and an honorary warden at Chobe National Park.

~ Alan

Unbelievable turn of events by Minister of Wildlife TK Khama brother to the president of Botswana.

I personally know this man and I would trust a snake oil salesman before I would him and he had no knowledge of whatsoever of how to manage the country's wildlife.

I have screamed it 1000 times, trying to make people aware that Botswana had HALF of the entire population of wild elephants in the world. They are in this mans and his brothers hands.

In November it was perceived as great news that Botswana was going to ban trophy hunting. everyone was n the bandwagon congratulating Botswana for its excellent commitment to saving its wildlife and its outstanding knowledge and management in this field. A fact is that I worked with DWNP for 5 years and their management is extremely poor and unorganized, the wardens have no passion for the job and that's what it is for most of them, just a salary. They don't even have money to buy a spotlight to carry on their vehicles that are mostly run down in any case.
I can summarize this point in that in the 30 years I have been visiting Chobe not once have I ever seen a park warden patrolling in the park. Once they collect your money at the gate there is never a presence. Case closed.

Back to hunting by which by the way I am totally neutral on as there are so many cons and pros. When the ban was discussed I read between the lines and had inside information as to what was really happening. They were to stop hunting to remove the "eyes" from the remote areas so the Government can go in there in January and kill 70 to 80 thousand elephants for their own profit. Of course after that has happened then I predicted that they would start hunting back again. No one seemed to care or understand what I have been trying to expose.

Of course there has been countless discussions and arguments about this decision which I will not delve into as its well documented. Of course the Botswana government has no problem with unnecessarily slaughtering its cattle as an excuse to fight foot and Mouth did disease that has been around for millennia ( something fishy there), they have no problem alienating their own people the Bushmen of the Kalahari as their land had diamonds and now they are using an extreme method of harvesting natural gas called Fracking, no one complains that the president builds his own airstrip and palatial country house getting land appropriated illegally and that they can deport or just simply murder someone if they have a different opinion . The list can go on. Botswana is rapidly turning into a police state. It sickens me that the world will just stand by and let it happen as it did in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, the Congo etc., etc., etc.

So back to this article on Tshekedi Khama. It appears that they have stepped on their own tail again and he let the cat out of the bag to soon.
My main concern is the elephant population which I still believe is going to be slaughtered in January if it has not already done so. How can I stop it?

Tshekedi Khama is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Differentiating gunshots from hunters and poaching?? Come on Tshekedi. They will just resort to poisoned arrows, poisoning the water holes and poisoning the carcasses so that all vultures will die so they cannot spot a carcass, never mind all the other animals that will eat of the poached meat that is left to rot and is such a waste.

I'm so disgusted I had to vent..

Edited December 7, 2013 by shakari

[aris]

 

The only reason people believe Botswana doesn't have much corruption is because the Bots Govt claims that's the case.

 

They fare pretty well on the (independent) corruption index:

 

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

 

Botswana are #30 on the list, the USA is #19, and the UK #14.

 

Spain is #40, and Greece is #80 - South Africa #72.

 

I don't believe the botswana government have any say in that index. And they do better than many European Countries, and all African ones.

 

Their government is stable, they have had good economic growth since independence, low unemployment.

 

Sure they are not perfect, but compared to the neighbours, they are pretty good.

[shakari]

Propaganda mate.

 

The Govt is nothing more than a dressed up dictatorship where the current President is the son of the former one & it's economy is artificially maintained by it's minerals, notably copper & some gold which is now running out, hence the attempt to clear the hunting areas so the frackers etc could go in. - Take a look at that DM link I posted about Nigeria & consider similar pollution in areas such as the Delta & think what it'd do to the wildlife there.

 

Low unemployment? Whoever claims that is a liar. Most locals outside the main towns & many in them are unemployed & because the country has one of the highest if not the highest incidences of AIDS most of these people are unemployable........ If it were as good as claimed, why do so many illegally cross to RSA to search for work?

 

Better than some? Sure they are but no better than most.

 

Another thing that needs addressing is the racist issue. Not just in Botswana but all African countries. Take a look at the entry/residency requirements for a white person compared to a black person & they're always entirely different.

 

Believe me, just because a Govt or a few websites claim something about Africa, it ain't necessarily true.

Edited December 7, 2013 by shakari

[bostonmick]

I didn't mention the second world war, my analogy was with pre-war Germany where the law of the land subjugated many, due to their parentage, and stripped them of property, rights and dignity.

 

If I had worked with a black South African (I don't think coloured is de-rigueur) who had a hatred of whites due to the injustices he had suffered, do you think I would base my opinion of a race on that one man? No, of course not, I would look at the bigger picture.

 

Mandela's legacy isn't what he did as a freedom fighter, it is his capacity to forgive, accept forgiveness and encourage others to forgive that have set him apart. South Africa is in no way perfect, and it never has been, but it could have been so much worse.

 

s/a has some of the most fantastic scenery in the world some of the best climate conditions in the world some of the biggest reserves of precious minerals under the ground but what good has it done.under white rule it was a terrible place to live and under black is still a terrible place.i have turned down on three occasions the offer of a holiday from relatives who live there because I did not wish to spend a few weeks living inside the confines of a 12 foot high wall where armed security patrol the perimeter and you cannot freely move around in public without fear.as I said no change from the good old days as some call them but it is change that in a great part was brought about by mr mandella.its a shame amin is not still on the scene or they executed saddam as we could have held them up as hero's and freedom fighters now alongside the so called respected world leaders.weapons of mass destruction its taking a blooming long time to find them.nelson is dead and he can now rest in peace can the same be said for the nation he leaves behind.

[bicykillgaz]

he didn't actually go to prison for what he believed in, he went to prison for admitting guilt to what he had done, a slight difference.

 

 

KW

I'm with KW on this he was also big mates with Gaddafi and Suharto of Indonesia who donated millions to the ANC Gaddafi. Mandela was head of the MK who were basically the terrorist cell of the ANC and have killed hundreds of people with random bombings on civilians.

 

I guess as long as the cause is ok in some people minds the crimes don't matter. I don't doubt once he'd served time he came out a different man, but if he'd not liked the Africa he found would he have stayed a peaceful man or got out the c4 and ak47's again.

 

I think the cause he fought for was good but a terrorist is a terrorist no matter how you sugar coat it.

 

Can't argue that his actions changed the lives of millions for the better but people still died on his command.

[Nikk]

The cause he started fighting for was actually communism which is anything but good.

 

If there is one thing that can be taken from terrorist conflicts like this is that rather than try and smash them down it is much better to be ahead of them and make positive social changes before people are led astray by the violent scumbags that were the Communists, IRA etc etc.

 

Maybe if the USA hadn't finally stopped their own version of apartheid they'd have had something similar happen which is probably why they acted rather than out of some moral compass.

[bicykillgaz]

FalconFN- "Mandela's legacy isn't what he did as a freedom fighter, it is his capacity to forgive, accept forgiveness and encourage others to forgive that have set him apart. South Africa is in no way perfect, and it never has been, but it could have been so much worse."

 

What exactly did he have to forgive people for? He was convicted for his crimes which he admitted to. The way I see it is if someone raped my wife and I killed them millions would think what I did was for the right reason, but it's still a crime and I'd still be a killer. Only the big difference is the MK killed innocent people.

[Catweazle]

This thread caused me to read up on MK, which I knew little about. The text below is lifted from Wikipedia, for those who are interested.

 

Military campaign[edit]

Units of ANC exiles had MK camps in the "frontline" states neighbouring South Africa, most prominently Angola where MK was allied to the MPLA government, and fought alongside Angolan and Cuban troops at the engagement in Cuito Cuanavale.^{[citation needed]} MK fighters were also allied with ZAPU (rival to Robert Mugabe's ZANU) in then-Rhodesia, with FRELIMO in Mozambique, and withSWAPO in Namibia.

In June 1961, Mandela sent a letter to South African newspapers warning the government that a campaign of sabotage would be launched unless the government agreed to call for a national constitutional convention.^[5] Beginning on 16 December 1961, the campaign by Umkhonto we Sizwe with Mandela as its leader, launched bomb attacks on government targets and planned for possible guerrilla warfare.^[6] The first target of the campaign was an electricity sub-station. Umkhonto we Sizwe undertook other acts of sabotage in the next eighteen months. The government alleged more acts of sabotage had been carried out and at the Rivonia trial the accused would be charged with 193 acts of sabotage in total.^[7] The sabotage included attacks on government posts, machines, power facilities and crop burning.^[5]

In 1962 Mandela went to Algeria, Egypt and Ghana to get international backing for the group. After returning to South Africa, Mandela was described by Joe Slovo as "sent off to Africa a Communist and he came back an African nationalist."^[8]

Following the suppression of MK inside South Africa in the late 1960s the organisation's cadres undertook military actions against the Rhodesian army (in, it was hoped, a prelude to crossing into South Africa itself).^{[citation needed]} In 1965 MK formally allied itself withZIPRA and in July 1967 a joint MK/ZIPRA commando crossed into Rhodesia. The mission was a failure at both tactical and strategic levels, though the joint MK/ZIPRA detachment engaged the Rhodesian army in heavy firefights over the next year and academic sources have suggested that the cadres of the revolutionary armies acquitted themselves well enough for the Rhodesians to ask for South African assistance with the landmine problems they had on the farmers in the area.^{[citation needed]}

The early 1970s were a low point for the ANC in many ways, and that included in the military fields. Attempts to rebuild MK inside South Africa resulted in many losses though some, including Chris Hani, were able to remain undetected for a long period.^{[citation needed]} The Soweto Uprising of 1976 led to a large exodus of young black men and women. Anxious to strike back at the apartheid regime, they crossed the border to Rhodesia to seek military training. While Umkhonto we Sizwe were able to rebuild an army – one capable of attacking prestigious targets such as the refineries at Sasolburg^{[citation needed]} – the force also suffered from appalling breakdowns of discipline and there were many accusations that many new recruits were being tortured or killed by a physical training regime that was out of control, such as forcing recruits to run 25 kilometres without resting or lifting weights as heavy as 150 kilograms.

By the mid-1980s MK was concentrating on propaganda of the deed – namely high profile attacks on prestige targets to demonstrate to the world the depth of resistance to apartheid as well as display to the majority population that resistance was possible (see below for a discussion of the controversies that followed) – and on building liberated zones inside the townships.^{[citation needed]}

Bombings[edit]

Landmark events in MK's military activity inside South Africa consisted of actions designed to intimidate the ruling power. In 1983, theChurch Street bomb was detonated in Pretoria near the South African Air Force Headquarters, resulting in 19 deaths and 217 injuries. During the next 10 years, a series of bombings occurred in South Africa, conducted mainly by the military wing of the African National Congress.

In the Amanzimtoti bomb on the Natal South Coast in 1985, five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre killing five people, including three children, shortly before Christmas. In a submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), the ANC stated that Zondo acted on orders after a recent SADF raid in Lesotho.^[9]

A bomb was detonated in a bar on the Durban beach-front in 1986, killing three civilians and injuring 69. Robert McBride received the death penalty for this bombing which became known as the "Magoo's Bar bombing". Although the subsequent Truth and Reconciliation Committee called the bombing a "gross violation of human rights",^[10] McBride received amnesty and became a senior police officer.

In 1987, an explosion outside a Johannesburg court killed three people and injured 10; a court in Newcastle had been attacked in a similar way the previous year, injuring 24. In 1987, a bomb exploded at a military command centre in Johannesburg, killing one person and injuring 68 personnel.

The bombing campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four civilians were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, in a bomb detonation outside a magistrate's court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb killed two and injured 37 civilians. A multitude^{[citation needed]} of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties.

Landmine campaign[edit]

From 1985 to 1987, there also was a campaign to place anti-tank mines in rural roads in what was then the Northern Transvaal. This tactic was abandoned due to the high rate of civilian casualties—especially amongst black labourers. The ANC estimated 30 landmine explosions resulting in 23 deaths, while the government submitted a figure of 57 explosions resulting in 25 deaths.^[11]

Torture and executions[edit]

The TRC found that torture was "routine" and was official policy – as were executions "without due process" at ANC detention camps particularly in the period of 1979–1989.^[12]

[shakari]

One of those bombs came close to nailing me in the 80s........ I was at the (IIRC) Rand Show in Jo'burg with a couple of friends. We sat down & had something to eat, put our rubbish in a nearby (2 or 3 yards away) rubbish bin, walked away, turned a corner & a bomb that must have been in the same bin, exploded!

 

Maybe that's one of the reasons I'm a bit cynical about the 'freedom fighters'. LOL

[overandunder2012]

One of those bombs came close to nailing me in the 80s........ I was at the (IIRC) Rand Show in Jo'burg with a couple of friends. We sat down & had something to eat, put our rubbish in a nearby (2 or 3 yards away) rubbish bin, walked away, turned a corner & a bomb that must have been in the same bin, exploded!

 

Maybe that's one of the reasons I'm a bit cynical about the 'freedom fighters'. LOL

fair enough close call

[castletyne]

It amazes me the people in this country queuing for hours to sign the book of condolence

 

Or those standing bubbling their eyes out you'd think it was a family member

[shakari]

It amazes me the people in this country queuing for hours to sign the book of condolence

 

Or those standing bubbling their eyes out you'd think it was a family member

 

Amazing how many ***** there are in the world!

[FalconFN]

What exactly did he have to forgive people for? He was convicted for his crimes which he admitted to. The way I see it is if someone raped my wife and I killed them millions would think what I did was for the right reason, but it's still a crime and I'd still be a killer. Only the big difference is the MK killed innocent people.

Seriously?

[Gimlet]

Gimlet is quite right about the Chinese.

 

Try taking a trip to Uganda and travelling to the Karamoja which is on the Sudanese border and one of those areas where the UK Govt recommend be avoided and see how their mining operations are stuffing up an area where Bell used to hunt endless elephants. Look at the pollution and destruction and lack of game and it'll take your breath away.

 

Let me give you another example of the Belgian Congo: They've had more than 50 years and endless foreign aid to get things right and yet can't succeed in putting a single brick on top of another and then look at Germany & Japan who at the end of WWII couldn't feed their own people, had lost a large part of their working population, had to pay endless war reparations and had no foreign aid to help them....... then wind the clock forward 50 years from then and see how successful they had become!

 

If Europe and the USA can achieve these things with less, why can't Africa do it with considerably more?

 

 

Tribal division, a political culture which has advanced little beyond feudalism, a social culture controlled by primogeniture and juvenile male machismo, the suppression of women and the complete absence of a civil administrative heritage or democratic accountability. It took most European nations, including Britain, a thousand years of slog and sacrifice to evolve to their present levels of imperfection. Much of Africa is barely a quarter of the way there and while it struggles the rest of the world picks its pockets, exploiting and manipulating for advantage.

Robert Mugabe was once invited to dinner by Ian Smith and his wife to discuss informally the future of Rhodesia. Smith, then and now reviled as a rascist for his committment to white rule, told Mugabe that he did not in fact object to the black vote in principle but that he feared that there were as yet too few educated blacks capable of running a civil administration and safeguarding the country's prosperity. Rule by an unready black majority, he feared, would see the country descend into tridalism, corruption, brutalism, dictatorship and economic ruin. Mugabe, himself the beneficiary of an expensive western education, used his great charm to reassure Smith that he would never permitt such an outcome, that Rhodesia's future would be safe in his hands. Smith took him as an honourable man and believed him.

Rhodesia is now Zimbabwe, a failed state; Mugabe is still in power and Smith, still slandered as a racist by white liberals, is spinning in his grave.

[ordnance]

I have mixed feelings about Mandela, Living in a country where terrorists killed hundreds of men women and children. I have trouble forgetting about his terrorist past that most seem to trying air brush out of history just like they are trying to do here. We have terrorists in government here all they have done is put on suits and took of their balaclavas but they are still murdering scum bags.

[Nikk]

 

I have mixed feelings about Mandela, Living in a country where terrorists killed hundreds of men women and children. I have trouble forgetting about his terrorist past that most seem to trying air brush out of history just like they are trying to do here. We have terrorists in government here all they have done is put on suits and took of their balaclavas but they are still murdering scum bags.

 

 

I see him the same way as McGuiness or Adams. At the end of the day they had a point but killing innocent people to get it across is just 100% wrong.

[patrickstar]

Mmmm what a interesting thread the truth of the matter is the guy was a convicted terrorist and when he got his chance to rule s.a he was just as corrupt as the rest of them.spending billions on army aircraft etc while his brothers live in little shanty towns with nothing yes some hero , I wonder if the world would be in mourning if he had been white somehow I doubt it

[shakari]

Love him or hate him, it was a helluva good thing he was there at the handover of power because it wouldn't have been half as peaceful as it was without him.

 

The sad thing is his Rainbow Nation that he made so many sacrifices to create is now dead and buried and the ***** who came after him have squandered his sacrifices entirely and when Madman Malema becomes President as he surely will one day, he's going to destroy the country entirely so God help everyone, especially the whites when that sad day comes.

[Dr D]

Gimlet is quite right about the Chinese.

 

Try taking a trip to Uganda and travelling to the Karamoja which is on the Sudanese border and one of those areas where the UK Govt recommend be avoided and see how their mining operations are stuffing up an area where Bell used to hunt endless elephants. Look at the pollution and destruction and lack of game and it'll take your breath away.

 

Let me give you another example of the Belgian Congo: They've had more than 50 years and endless foreign aid to get things right and yet can't succeed in putting a single brick on top of another and then look at Germany & Japan who at the end of WWII couldn't feed their own people, had lost a large part of their working population, had to pay endless war reparations and had no foreign aid to help them....... then wind the clock forward 50 years from then and see how successful they had become!

 

If Europe and the USA can achieve these things with less, why can't Africa do it with considerably more?

Thats interesting revisionism with regard to europe and wwwII. Ever heard of the marshall plan. Perhaps you should check out the expenditure and then revise up for the 21st century.

[maxie]

If Mandela was a terrorist so was George Washington,all both of them wanted was representation and empowerment for their people.

[chrisjh]

British government are by definition "state terrorists" have been for centuries look at what we have done in Ireland, Africa, Australia, India in fact all the commonwealth countries, we are still acting as terrorists in places like the Falkland Islands & Gibraltar

 

George Washington used the teeth from his slaves to make his own false ones

Edited December 8, 2013 by chrisjh

[Munzy]

My initial reaction was one of indifference because I knew his "New Testament" approach was one of peace but his "Old Testament" roots were in violent action.

 

After reading a bit more I see his initial approach and campaigning was peaceful. When this didn't work (and we are talking years of trying amidst unbelievable oppression) he turned to violent action.

 

I think this debate simply boils down to whether violent action is ever acceptable. In terms of the horrors of Apartheid I think if peaceful action is falling on deaf ears and violence is the only thing left what would you do as a black South African?

 

As for comparing him to Adams or McGuinness I think that is very sad. Those ******** should hang for their actions. You cannot compare Apartheid with a sectarian squabble over religion and sovereignty where both sides had equal voting rights and footing in society. What's more, scratch the surface of the IRA and you find an organised criminal gang, not some romantic Irish freedom fighters. Racketeering, drug dealing, protection and theft was their day to day business. Try running a haulage business across the border into Eire and you might as well have been in Palermo Sicily.

 

I don't know enough about the ANC but I can only imagine there was massive corruption in the organisation with funds being siphoned off (it sounds like Winnie took her fair share). The difference between Adams and Mandela though is huge. Adams and his people were not classed as second class citizens and made to live as such.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

we are still acting as terrorists in places like the Falkland Islands & Gibraltar

 

Are we REALLY?

 

 

Please explain your comment.

[old rooster]

Are we REALLY?

 

 

Please explain your comment.

Why do you bother