If there was a total ban on lead .....?

[thepasty]

the only alternative in volume would mean steel.

 

 

A real need for an effective replacement doesn't exist today, if a lead ban came about I am in no doubt that something would be found thats not overly expensive yet comparable to lead in effectiveness.

[Guest cookoff013]

 

A real need for an effective replacement doesn't exist today, if a lead ban came about I am in no doubt that something would be found thats not overly expensive yet comparable to lead in effectiveness.

 

you are kidding right? with some US states and some european countrys have switched to nontoxic and the highest volume of nontoxic shells is steel. full stop.

steel shells outnumber tungsten 100000 to 1 at least.

 

as the loading companys like hull and gamebore have steel loading equiptment already...

 

you`ll be waiting along time for an alternate thats effective as lead.

[motty]

the only alternative in volume would mean steel.

 

from some research i have done with another member. the recommendation would be

 

for under 20yard shots use +2 shotsizes (@1400fps)

for beyond 20yards upto 40yards +3 shotsizes (@1400fps)

for 40yards + use a minimum of "big shotsizes."

I'm not too sure about your recommendations, there. You would also have to factor in what quarry you were shooting.

 

For instance, I know for a fact that standard Gamebore 7.5 steel will kill ANY pigeon cleanly at under 20 yards. Absolutely no need to go up 2 sizes for that.

[kent]

It wouldn't drastically alter my shotgunning, I might have to buy some dear fox shells that's about it as I have no issues with steel. As regards rifles - disaster ricochets and poor ballistics nightmare! Non toxic .22LR is available in California guess what- its pants!

[wymberley]

I'm not too sure about your recommendations, there. You would also have to factor in what quarry you were shooting.

 

For instance, I know for a fact that standard Gamebore 7.5 steel will kill ANY pigeon cleanly at under 20 yards. Absolutely no need to go up 2 sizes for that.

Actually, you have just gone up two shot sizes from lead. If you are of the opinion that 7.5 steel will kill a pigeon at 20 yards then because No 9 lead has the identical energy on a like for like MV at that distance you will not be surprised that that also will kill said pigeon.

[Guest cookoff013]

I'm not too sure about your recommendations, there. You would also have to factor in what quarry you were shooting.

 

For instance, I know for a fact that standard Gamebore 7.5 steel will kill ANY pigeon cleanly at under 20 yards. Absolutely no need to go up 2 sizes for that.

OK. I'd live with that. But you know people will still continue to use substandard shells for game. The go up 2 rule is just to have shot at the same shotsize in mm. 7.5s would be fine for up to 20yards. But who wants there shooting limited to 20yards?

[Scully]

I do a lot of bolting rabbits to guns so I suppose I'd have to start wearing eye protection as my alternative to lead would be steel.

[Guest cookoff013]

I do a lot of bolting rabbits to guns so I suppose I'd have to start wearing eye protection as my alternative to lead would be steel.

Everyone's alternate to lead is steel.

[-Mongrel-]

Do you guys not think that if lead was banned, the non steel alternatives would be produced and brought on much more quickly, bringing down price and improving the products?

 

Surely at the moment things like Tungsten are only so expensive because there isn't a mass market and therefore mass production?

[Alfred]

People want cheap, so they buy steel.

I'd rather shoot less and have a better product, so I buy Tungsten.

[sitsinhedges]

Do you guys not think that if lead was banned, the non steel alternatives would be produced and brought on much more quickly, bringing down price and improving the products?

 

Surely at the moment things like Tungsten are only so expensive because there isn't a mass market and therefore mass production?

Cookoff covered this in post 27. The answer is no, if the Americans haven't with their huge market the UK certainly wont.

People want cheap, so they buy steel.

I'd rather shoot less and have a better product, so I buy Tungsten.

Not for shooting pigeons you don't.

[Scully]

Everyone's alternate to lead is steel.

is it?

[-Mongrel-]

Cookoff covered this in post 27. The answer is no, if the Americans haven't with their huge market the UK certainly wont.

 

 

 

But do the septics have such a large market of 'old' gun devotees. Half the guns we're talking about are older than the U.S.of A!

[Underdog]

I guess us muzzloaders will just give big brother the finger and smuggle lead in lol.

He is a bafoon after all lol.

 

U.

[Alfred]

 

Not for shooting pigeons you don't.

 

I don't shoot pigeons, but if I did and lead were banned I'd buy a cheaper shotgun and use steel.

[Guest cookoff013]

for those that think there is an alternate to lead around the corner, please think again. alot of different shot has been tested.

 

steel was never tested as a nontoxic substance in the states. it got passed asap.

if there was an alternate to steel shot, then the manufacturers would have sorted it out by now. the states went nontoxic in the 80`s and havent come up with a cheaper better alternative. all they`ve done is develop better powders with better wads at different speeds.....

 

there industry is way bigger than ours....

 

tungsten is expensive because it is a dense product and is hard to work with.

currently tungsten is 50x the price of lead. so a box of shells for that just in metal woulsd be $50-60.

hardly cheaper alternate, in the long term either.

[kent]

the only alternative in volume would mean steel.

 

from some research i have done with another member. the recommendation would be

 

for under 20yard shots use +2 shotsizes (@1400fps)

for beyond 20yards upto 40yards +3 shotsizes (@1400fps)

for 40yards + use a minimum of "big shotsizes."

This is highly debateable. In terms of energy alone perhaps but there is far more to it than that.

1. steel has a higher shot count per weight (more strikes)

2. a shorter shot column (more strikes on a fast moving target)

3. less wild fliers (more strikes)

4. patterns tighter per choke (more strikes)

AND JUST TO ADD ANOTHER COUPLE

5. is very round and true to size no odd ball shot helps all the above but also offers great CONSISTENT penetration

6. Is very hard and will not deform on striking bone even again adding to deep penetration I RARELY GET SMASHED LARGE WING BONES WITH LEAD - Steel? quite common

 

Most important of all it works and don't forget the fact than non toxic does act positively on future numbers of wetland birds.

 

There are two or three downsides

1. it will break your teeth which means presenting whole birds on the table is risky (generally its a case of cut them and run the shot detector over the meat) Even Birds "especially geese" can carry old wounds that have healed and cannot be seen as surface damage

2. It reaches a point were velocity and energy falls off a cliff (its very possible to over choke it and get patterns way beyond the range of clean kills)

3. It will ricochet in the trees, so busting out corvid nests and squirreling becomes decidedly dodgy. Over water aint really an issue or frozen ground / stones for that matter because a safe angle of backdrop is quite easy to assertion.

 

 

Its easy to run steel down but as many know from a shotgun it totally works, maybe the very best of shots have sacrificed 15 yds of range but for us mere mortals (and those who actually can judge range) just understand the facts as they stand. The whole rifle thing worries me, its already come on certain jobs - I think this is very misguided and dangerous there have already been fatalities from ricochets abroad were it has been forced in (something that's actually a vary rare type of accident using traditional lead core bullets). The whole gralloch contamination thing is BS because best practice alone insists there are not left out for the crows and foxes and other vermin should be easy enough to collect. I read an RSPB tender not long back for deer control on one of its reserves and let me say good luck to the guy who took it on and if he reads this; Are your screws quite tight enough? LOL

[Guest stevo]

If steel is all we can use in the end . I can see a massive rush on Hatsan orders haha

[wymberley]

This is highly debateable. In terms of energy alone perhaps but there is far more to it than that.

1. steel has a higher shot count per weight (more strikes)

2. a shorter shot column (more strikes on a fast moving target)

3. less wild fliers (more strikes)

4. patterns tighter per choke (more strikes)

AND JUST TO ADD ANOTHER COUPLE

5. is very round and true to size no odd ball shot helps all the above but also offers great CONSISTENT penetration

6. Is very hard and will not deform on striking bone even again adding to deep penetration I RARELY GET SMASHED LARGE WING BONES WITH LEAD - Steel? quite common

 

Most important of all it works and don't forget the fact than non toxic does act positively on future numbers of wetland birds.

 

There are two or three downsides

1. it will break your teeth which means presenting whole birds on the table is risky (generally its a case of cut them and run the shot detector over the meat) Even Birds "especially geese" can carry old wounds that have healed and cannot be seen as surface damage

2. It reaches a point were velocity and energy falls off a cliff (its very possible to over choke it and get patterns way beyond the range of clean kills)

3. It will ricochet in the trees, so busting out corvid nests and squirreling becomes decidedly dodgy. Over water aint really an issue or frozen ground / stones for that matter because a safe angle of backdrop is quite easy to assertion.

 

 

Its easy to run steel down but as many know from a shotgun it totally works, maybe the very best of shots have sacrificed 15 yds of range but for us mere mortals (and those who actually can judge range) just understand the facts as they stand. The whole rifle thing worries me, its already come on certain jobs - I think this is very misguided and dangerous there have already been fatalities from ricochets abroad were it has been forced in (something that's actually a vary rare type of accident using traditional lead core bullets). The whole gralloch contamination thing is BS because best practice alone insists there are not left out for the crows and foxes and other vermin should be easy enough to collect. I read an RSPB tender not long back for deer control on one of its reserves and let me say good luck to the guy who took it on and if he reads this; Are your screws quite tight enough? LOL

What is the point that you're actually debating? You seem to be in agreement with the points raised by your quoted post.

[Guest cookoff013]

This is highly debateable. In terms of energy alone perhaps but there is far more to it than that.

1. steel has a higher shot count per weight (more strikes)

2. a shorter shot column (more strikes on a fast moving target)

3. less wild fliers (more strikes)

4. patterns tighter per choke (more strikes)

AND JUST TO ADD ANOTHER COUPLE

5. is very round and true to size no odd ball shot helps all the above but also offers great CONSISTENT penetration

6. Is very hard and will not deform on striking bone even again adding to deep penetration I RARELY GET SMASHED LARGE WING BONES WITH LEAD - Steel? quite common

 

Most important of all it works and don't forget the fact than non toxic does act positively on future numbers of wetland birds.

 

There are two or three downsides

1. it will break your teeth which means presenting whole birds on the table is risky (generally its a case of cut them and run the shot detector over the meat) Even Birds "especially geese" can carry old wounds that have healed and cannot be seen as surface damage

2. It reaches a point were velocity and energy falls off a cliff (its very possible to over choke it and get patterns way beyond the range of clean kills)

3. It will ricochet in the trees, so busting out corvid nests and squirreling becomes decidedly dodgy. Over water aint really an issue or frozen ground / stones for that matter because a safe angle of backdrop is quite easy to assertion.

 

 

Its easy to run steel down but as many know from a shotgun it totally works, maybe the very best of shots have sacrificed 15 yds of range but for us mere mortals (and those who actually can judge range) just understand the facts as they stand. The whole rifle thing worries me, its already come on certain jobs - I think this is very misguided and dangerous there have already been fatalities from ricochets abroad were it has been forced in (something that's actually a vary rare type of accident using traditional lead core bullets). The whole gralloch contamination thing is BS because best practice alone insists there are not left out for the crows and foxes and other vermin should be easy enough to collect. I read an RSPB tender not long back for deer control on one of its reserves and let me say good luck to the guy who took it on and if he reads this; Are your screws quite tight enough? LOL

 

kent,

i didnt say what grammage of shell, so you quoting "steel has more shot /oz" is really immaterial. you could compare a 36g lead load and 1oz steel, and they`d be comparable on shotcount. but not performance.

 

shotcolumn? i didnt mention choke , barrel gauge or air density either. its a useless argument.

 

patterns tighter - more strikes? again a useless argument. as its energy downrange. not patterns etc.

 

the list i wrote is to eventually reduce the number of people trying to shoot geese with steel 7s or even steel 9s. its happened before and will happen time and time again.

i`ve had a few guys say they dont understand steel, and they then try and shoot canadas with 6s. and they stated it bounces off and they didnt really notice, and flew off.

 

you can say that its highly debatable. but what that list states is up to sporting ranges. ie 40yards. if i didnt discuss patterns at 20yards i certainly didnt mention them at 40yards. but pattern is regulated by chokes, and size of shell. the shotsize is just to get the minimum energy at 40yards, which is a suitable maximum sporting distance. with the bigger shotsizes maybe even alittle more.

 

wasnt there an article in a comic that said 28gauge steel 18gram #7 shells can take geese? hardly ideal, and sporting. i even doubt the article because if irecolect the shells speed wasnt even high speed.

 

you know whats going to happen, if there is a lead ban. steel `ll be used, and everyone `ll aclimatise themselves and settle for the shells they know work well. and the guys who have been using steel alot are fowlers. for them the transition will be uneventful. for the diehard "leadist" will be discomforting.

 

the whole shotsize grading system is set up for lead, and the numbers look funny for steel.

[kent]

Actually I wasn't criticising more adding. As someone else seems to chastise me for just previous, that's PW I suppose. The only debate with your post is one I never made- you will seriously struggle to find 1400 fps from factory yet I don't make that point up to 1700 can be loaded though

[Guest cookoff013]

1400fps is a factory loading. 1300fps at 2.5M calculated to 1400fps at muzzel.

highly achievable.

 

as for the 1700fps, that adds a whole new bunch of problems, even bulging aftermarket steel rated chokes.

[Rimfireboy]

I don't think banning lead would achieve anything but if it was banned, alternatives would be made available and we'd have to use them, like or not I suppose.

[kent]

1400fps is a factory loading. 1300fps at 2.5M calculated to 1400fps at muzzel.

highly achievable.

 

as for the 1700fps, that adds a whole new bunch of problems, even bulging aftermarket steel rated chokes.

 

You can get speed without to great a pressure. 12ga fedral 3" win 209 47.5 grn Alliant steel Sam1 felt to suit 437.5 grn steel shot 1795 fps 10,000 psi. Yes there are factory they just aint thick on the ground at that speed in the UK

[motty]

Actually, you have just gone up two shot sizes from lead. If you are of the opinion that 7.5 steel will kill a pigeon at 20 yards then because No 9 lead has the identical energy on a like for like MV at that distance you will not be surprised that that also will kill said pigeon.

What I meant was, as my usual pigeon shell is 28gm 7 or 7.5 in lead, that I would not require anything different in steel to kill pigeons at 20 yards.