Norfolk keeper charged

[anser2]

Sory Charlie , but unless you and others change your way of thinking you are doomed to extinction. What is more imporant to me is that all forms of shooting continue well after i am dead , but unless the shooting community wakes up alas that will not happen.

[1967spud]

WHERE ARE YOU ANSER

[David BASC]

As I understand it this person has been charged but not convicted, and under UK law he is innocent until proven guilty.

 

Not withstanding this , lets all understand and accept that birds of prey, like many other animals and plants are a protected species and there is no excuse at for killing or harming them, there is no benefit what so ever for the shooting community for anyone to break the law in this or any other context.

 

We will never get any law changed just be persistently breaking it. Will we reverse the hunting ban or restrictions on lead shot by deliberately ignoring the law and when caught simply say we have broken the law because we don't like it and it make no sense to me? No we wont , public and political opinion will be against us if we do, and we all know that.

 

None of the shooting or country sports organisations will condone illegal acts, nor do any of them see the way forward to change laws is by breaking them.

 

David

[Dekers]

What cave do some of you live in, what is all this righteous, holier than thou ****?

 

Have you never exceeded the speed limit, well MILLIONS of people do, and every now and again they get caught.

 

Yeah, he got caught, the others take more care!

 

I'd only give it a few years and expect to see the Kite on the GL.

 

Why is this thread here, of course we all have to be hypocritical now and jump on the guy!

 

Happy New Year!

[castletyne]

If found guilty then he should get a punishment that fits the crime

 

A fine and maybe banned from keeping animals for a couple of years

 

Not hung or sent to prison like some would like

[anser2]

Why would you want to see red kites back on the GL list? They are not a major preditor of game birds! lets get a few things back in balance compared with the number of pheasants killed by cars on the road or nests destroyed by farming methods the number of pheasants killed by raptors is a tiny fraction. There was some work done on road kills in Norfolk and it was found that a pheasant was killed by car for every 5m of road. I am not sure how many metres of road there are in Norfolk but that relates to one hell of a lot of dead pheasants.

 

The real problem for game birds is the same as for many other farmland birds , modern farming methods result in a lack of food in the countryside and more traffic \ faster roads increase the number of game birds killed . Some of our raptors are only just getting back to the levels the countryside should support , but many are still well below what we should have . The few raptors take overall make little to the game bird population. I have said this before on here but the estate I work on is run as a wild bird shoot and supports a dozen pairs of common buzzards along with a host of other raptors , but still manages to provide some very good shooting days with bags of 100 regulary reached. Apart from some limited fox and corvide control ( mainly rooks and jackdaws on drillings ) no other predators are controled. The estate has plenty of cover in the form of woodland, hedgerows and rough meadows , the farms are run as a mixed arable and livestock farm, its owner and manager are very gamebird aware ,the wild game are very raptor wise unlike the tame chickens you so often see and the shoot is geared around shooting cocks with most hens left. Even after a bad spring like last year there are still plenty of gamebirds.

 

 

Spud as it says in my profile I live in Norfolk.

[Harnser]

Sory Charlie , but unless you and others change your way of thinking you are doomed to extinction. What is more imporant to me is that all forms of shooting continue well after i am dead , but unless the shooting community wakes up alas that will not happen.

 

Anser 2 ,you are waisting your time with the few hard core pheasant shooters on here who think that they have to shoot 300 birds a day to make it worth while . It proberbly takes that many birds to make a profit on the day ,thats what they are after .

They dont have the sense or the for sight to see what could happen to game shooting in this country if we keep on shooting massive bags of game birds ,only reared to be shot for a profit ,and shooting rap tors and the whole sale killing of foxes . There are far more antis out there than there are shooters .

They should look across the north sea to Holland to see what has happened to game shooting over there ,and it could easily happen over here .

 

Harnser.

[Alfred]

 

Anser 2 ,you are waisting your time with the few hard core pheasant shooters on here who think that they have to shoot 300 birds a day to make it worth while . It proberbly takes that many birds to make a profit on the day ,thats what they are after .

They dont have the sense or the for sight to see what could happen to game shooting in this country if we keep on shooting massive bags of game birds ,only reared to be shot for a profit ,and shooting rap tors and the whole sale killing of foxes . There are far more antis out there than there are shooters .

They should look across the north sea to Holland to see what has happened to game shooting over there ,and it could easily happen over here .

 

Harnser.

 

Are you concerned about the pictures of people sitting next to the dead bodies of 300 pigeons that seem to get posted all over the place?

Every time I open the Shooting Times there are pictures of blokes in army fatigues with hundreds of pigeon corpses, grining manically and showing off their shotguns.

 

I have no beef with them, but it can't do much for shooting PR.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Alfred

[poontang]

 

 

 

I have no beef with them, but it can't do much for shooting PR.

 

Not sure killing BoP does much for shooting PR either.

[matone]

I wouldn't say it is quite that bad but there are fewer and fewer real country folk these days who have an understanding of the complexities of the countryside and how all field sports (should) mesh together.

Sadly,very true .

[bornfree]

What cave do some of you live in, what is all this righteous, holier than thou ****?

 

Have you never exceeded the speed limit, well MILLIONS of people do, and every now and again they get caught.

 

Yeah, he got caught, the others take more care!

 

I'd only give it a few years and expect to see the Kite on the GL.

 

Why is this thread here, of course we all have to be hypocritical now and jump on the guy!

 

Happy New Year!

I must say i agree with the above and feel sorry for the guy.this happens all over the country and he was just unlucky.

[truflex]

I couldn't name a game keeper that doesn't kill birds of prey and I knew a few.

[CharlieT]

I couldn't name a game keeper that doesn't kill birds of prey and I knew a few.

 

Brilliant PR, you should be proud of yourself.

[-Mongrel-]

 

Are you concerned about the pictures of people sitting next to the dead bodies of 300 pigeons that seem to get posted all over the place?

Every time I open the Shooting Times there are pictures of blokes in army fatigues with hundreds of pigeon corpses, grining manically and showing off their shotguns.

 

I have no beef with them, but it can't do much for shooting PR.

 

Agreed as well, which is one reason why you won't find a photo of me with anything other than a fish on this or any other forum. I can promise you that it's not because I don't have any either!

I couldn't name a game keeper that doesn't kill birds of prey and I knew a few.

Well my friend, if you value your shooting maybe you should be thinking of naming them to the relevant authority. I have to say, if I knew of one of my wildfowling companions using lead, I'd have a word and if they continued, I'd be letting the club know. I'm not prepared to let one individual put at risk the entire clubs prospects.

Edited December 29, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[Paddy Galore!]

I do believe the bottom line is, if we can't police ourselves then expect the powers that be to jump in with eyes wide shut and start banning everything shooting related.

[scotslad]

 

Brilliant PR, you should be proud of yourself.

 

Exactly. I really can't understand the attitude off some poeple (or the stupidity of others)

 

Is it a jealousy thing/class war this is a supposedly coutryside/shooters forum, with some off ur comments it would seem u must get all ur countryside info off countryfile, autumn watch and walt disney

 

Driven shooting is not really my thing (even if i could afford it) but i have spent many a day beating or picking up on large commercial shoots, 3 an 4 years ago that was my only income for 4-6 weeks as off work with the weather

U don't have to be big fans off it and u mat not agree with the large scale rearing BUT the ammount off money they put into rural areas which are never great for employment and esp at a quiet tourism time off year. They're is plenty of published studies showing how much money shooting brings into rural econimies, (sure it was into billions, something like 25 billion) its not unusaul for a large commercial operation to be running on a budget into 7 figures, that is all put into local garages, petrol stations, local workers (fencers, beaters etc) feed merchants and game farmers.

Do u reallly think ur game farmer who u buy 1-200 poults off for ur DIY syndicate would survive if it wasn't for the big shoots. Same with feed merchants for poult pellets

 

Wether u like them or not, they probably are a neccessary evil, for the ammount of money they pump into poor areas and the ammount of habitat work and supplementry food they put out

 

As for fox conrol? Do some of u live in the real world. Try looking at the GCWT research at Otterburn, a study into affects on predation on upland birds, mainly waders, it found most species of upland birds are becoming slowly/locally extinct purely down to predation (not much intesive agriculture on the otterburn ranges)

 

As for BOP predation u can look at the first Langholm study, ruined a productive grouse moor, cost 5 keepers there jobs and 15 years down the line was neither grouse or HH or pretty much any other birdlife on wot was a thriving moor

 

I can only speak for a lot of keepers i know and NONE of them persecute raptors. FULL STOP, it's simply not worth it, ur job (and future jobs), lifestyle, guns, dogs, house etc

They're is more poeple now walking snooping around the counrtyside than ever before, if it was happening on the scale some would have u believe there would be a lot of people gettin caught.

If raptor persecution is sooooo widescale how are raptor numbers at the highest ever recorded?

 

 

Truflex, i see by ur photo thing, are u based in N ireland?

I have no idea wot its like over there, (but i think 50 golden eagle chicks that were released over there from scotland didn't fare to well) but there really isn'y a massive problem with it in the uk mainland

Edited December 29, 2013 by scotslad

[scotslad]

Tried to add if i had a choice between a large (say 300 bird day) or a days ferreting to shotgun or ratch about with a few good mates would take the other 2 every time.

Just can't see why so many like minded people come up with such a lot of nonsense.

[CharlieT]

Good post Scotslad and just about sums it all up.

 

Nowhere in this thread has anyone condoned the shooting of BOP and I just can't understand why some posters think that anyone would agree with such an illegal act.

 

Equally I find it astonishing that some refuse to accept that BOP do have an economic impact on gamebirds, a fact that is accepted by NE who have demonstrated that they are willing to and have issued licenses for buzzard nest destruction to protect gamebirds. To argue that it is a rare occurrence and go on to suggest that such predation is self inflicted through poor management is scurrilous and demonstrates a refusal to accept what actually happens in the real world. Just because admitting it does happen, doesn't mean that those who accept the fact dislike or wish to kill every buzzard they see, rather, it's just an acknowledgement that such things happen and a solution must be found, the easiest option being to release more birds to cover the losses.

 

As others have said, we as country sports enthusiasts should all be pulling together and supporting one another, not rubbishing a section we have never tried or know nothing about.

 

As stated in a very early post, even if found guilty, this is one rogue keeper out of thousands of law abiding keepers. To further a witch hunt against an as yet, uncharged keeper with such vile beggars belief.

[swingit]

I couldn't name a game keeper that doesn't kill birds of prey and I knew a few.

 

 

IMHO! it's not in our best interests to leave this post on PW and it should be removed ASAP!

[anser2]

Any impact buzzards have on game birds is small compared with many other factors that affect them. Cars kill many more pheasants than hawks. Of those hawks that can cause problems the buzzard is well down the list. Properly peregrines, harriers and goshawks take far more birds that buzzards do. I am not saying buzzards are all together innocent, but their impact is small in comparison. As for the licence for removing a limited number of eggs , I suspect that has more to do with the minister issuing the licence also having a pheasant shoot than serious science.

 

I find part of the problem is that keepers have grown up in a countryside because their forefathers all but exterminated raptors. I grew up in a Norfolk countryside where buzzards were extinct, sparrowhawks and marsh harriers very rare and any other raptors were almost unheard of. Only the kestrel could be called common. Now raptors are starting to their natural level the easy excuse is to blame the buzzard.

 

The main period of buzzard problem is when the poults are still in release pens, but how many keepers take basic precautions to protect the poults. Time after time I have advised keepers to cover their release pens to stop buzzards getting to the birds and yet when I return weeks later nothing has been done. Some offering the excuse that their fathers never had to cover the pens. The easy answer is to look down the barrel of a gun.

 

Timing is very important. Poults go to release pens at the same time the juvenile buzzards are independent of their parents. Still learning their hunting skills poults make an easy target. Buying in the poults early or late would help relieve this problem if it occurs. If the odd young buzzard gets a taste for easy prey then it may well continue to go for poults after release until they become too large. Cover the release pens and the juvenile buzzards never get the chance to get at easy poults. Siteing release pens so the pheasants disperse into good quality cover is also very important.

 

I sit in both camps being a biologist working in the field and having lived and enjoyed field sports since childhood in the countryside. Too many people on here seem to live in the past when landowners and keepers were a law to themselves. But all this is changing fast; public opinion has become very important to our politicians no matter what party though the pace of change has slowed under this present government it is still happening. And do not believe just because we have a Tory government in power shooting is safe. Remember almost all the legislation restricting shooting in the past 50 years has come under a Tory not a labour government. If you want your children to enjoy shooting then we have to bend with public opinion and keep what we can otherwise we will lose it all for those who wish to follow our footsteps in to this fine sport.

 

[norfolk dumpling]

I agree with the sentiments re roadkill (anser2) and overstocking - was driving near W Somerton last summer and there were probably 50 or so dead poults on a 100 yd stretch of busy road. A tragic sight for me but who was at fault - the motorists for ploughing through them or shoot for sighting release pen close to road.

 

My colleague was horrified by this - I tried to explain how it might have happened but his unbiased opinion was the shoot was surely at fault. He doesn't shoot and isn't an anti. We need to improve our image.

[scotslad]

Anser u make some very good points which i agree with.

 

Siting and design of ur pen can drasticlly reduce the impact off buzzards.

 

But whoose fault is it there is no info on Buzzards? Defra had all the 'stakeholder' groups round the table last year and proposed some non lethal relocations studies to try and access the impact of buzzards on game birds and different ways to minimise it, but the RSPB who sat on the comitee and agreed with everything threw the toys out the pram and went behind there backs and leaked false info to the press to get it stopped

 

U also say keepers are 100% behind the decline in BOP numbers! If that is the case how did BOP numbers only really decline in around the 50's -70's, when keepers numbers would have been the lowest for generations after the war and many methods of control had already been banned (althou many still used),

Yes keepers have targeted raptors for generations and used some pretty nasty methods which at 1 time was perfectly legal to do and still could not reduce there numbers to wot there were in fairly recent times. It was DDT which meant they were having almost no breeding success and recruitment as all the eggs shells were breaking . So yes illegal persecution combined with the DDT brought there numbers to the edge, but not persecution on its own.

U can see numbers have shot up so quick i the last 20 odd years, so there population has fairly prolific breeding success so could easily stand a small number of problem birds culled under licence each year and would not effect the population. Althou it should be a the last resort only after everything else has been tried.

 

Anser do u agree with shooting cormarnts under licence to protect fish stocks? Which is quite a common licence to be granted. Yet there is something like 5x the number of buzzards yet the exact same licence won't be granted?

 

If kestrels where once the only common BOP why are they the only BOP in decline? And u can't blame global warming or modern agriculture as most owl spp that have similar needs to a kestrel are thriving. ONly 1 reason for there decline competion and bullying

 

So if BOP's are at there more natural level, where they should be, can we also assume that waders, song birds, ground nesting birds etc are also returning to their natural level?

Really don't want to be around in 20-30 years when evrything is at its natural levels, unless BOP's start eating corvids will be b ugger all left to eat

 

There tends to be far to much emotion put on BOP's from both sides althou 1 side is really pushing it as that is their major marketing ploy and chief money maker. When the general public realise just how damaging BOP's can be in certain circunstances and that most off their nature resrves are where animals go to be eaten, very few of there nature reserves are fledging enough young to support their populations.

Shooters are conservationists as well and should be working hand in hand with the likes of the RSPB but they really are doing more harm than good to uk's wildlife and seem intent in pushing a wedge between the landownig/shooting community

Edited December 30, 2013 by scotslad

[anser2]

Hi Scotslad, The information on reducing the impact of BoP on game birds is out there. A few years ago BASC published a booklet on the subject. More work is being done, but you do not get results over night. It takes several years of research first.

 

Its true pesticides did have a huge impact on some raptors, but buzzards were not one of them. Why? Buzzards and kestrels are mainly mammal predators where the DDT was much less a problem. Sparrowhawk are mainly bird predators and in was with DDT being passed along the food chain in small birds that the raptors were receiving concentrated doses of DDT.

 

In Eastern England buzzards were shot out of existence well before DDT was invented and their extinction can be clearly put down to game shooting and keepers before 1950.

 

What you say is true buzzards numbers have increased and may soon be reaching their natural level and you suggest culling them. The big BUT is can you put your hand on your heart and say you could tell the difference between a honey buzzard and a common buzzard? I have been working with both species for years and I could not say that every time. One of the best bird ID books is Collins Bird Guide. In the birds of prey section there is a very telling paragraph

 

“Do not hope for or pretend reliable identification of all birds of prey in the field- EVER”

 

If expert birdwatchers with their advance optical aids can’t always Bop how a man with a gun can expect to.

 

We have less than 50 and proberly closer to 35 pairs of honey buzzards in the UK. Time and time again in old records you will read of honey buzzards being shot by mistake for other raptors by keepers. 50 years ago we almost lost them when there were less than 10 pairs in the country. Is it really worth the risk of these mistakes arising again just for the sake of a few pheasants that we release by the million every year.

 

I disagree with your statement “Yes keepers have targeted raptors for generations and used some pretty nasty methods which at 1 time was perfectly legal to do and still could not reduce there numbers to wot there were in fairly recent times.”

 

In lowland England they did a very good job. It was different in Scotland and some other upland areas as the area keepered was small compared with the huge wild unkeepered upland areas so there was always going to be an inflow of raptors from upland areas onto the game shot areas.

 

Past history has shown what keepering can do to our BoP populations. Persecution is still going on at a low level despite protection. Do you ever think we could regain public trust if that protection was lifted? I suspect under the excuse of saying it was a mistake other species of raptor would be targeted and we would soon be back in the dark ages where raptors would become extinct over large areas of the UK.

 

The reasons for kestrel decline are proberly related to modern farming methods. Kestrels mainly feed on mice and voles. With modern storage of grain and changes in field size , over wintering stubbles reduction in hedgerows the food supply for mice is greatly reduced today and as a result the food supply for kestrels resulting in their decline.

 

As for the suggestion that raptors are reducing the bird populations on nature reserves as a whole that does not hold true. Part of the area I advise on includes a small wetland reserve ( those who are on the wildfowl forum have seen the reserve wildfowl counts ). The reserve is less than 250 acres and yet supports a pair and a trio of breeding harsh harriers, a pair of buzzards, a pair of sparrowhawks and a pair of kestrels , plus good numbers of hen harriers , and short eared owls and a wide variety of passage hawks. Yet that small reserve has 20 pairs of breeding lapwing, 3 pairs of redshank, 2 pairs of little ringed plovers and 80 avocet nests. We have our good years and bad years but the weather is the main factor effecting the breeding waders and to a lesser extent gulls, not the raptors. It’s the same story with the other local reserves at Cley , Holkham and Titichwell – lots of small birds – plenty of raptors. If the small bird populations declined then the raptors too would quickly decline. I am not saying the raptors do not take some of the waders , ducklings and small birds, of course they do. But their impact is very small compared to a host of other environmental factors – weather-food-disturbance- disease.

 

It’s the numbers of prey that determine the numbers of raptors , not the other way around. Where things get out of balance is where you have a predator like the carrion crow that can turn to other foods when its prey ( eggs and young birds ) get in short supply , keep their own crow populations high that then surpress the bird populations in the future .

[islandgun]

Surely BOP numbers increase because man has introduced large quantities of prey /food into the wild, therefore sporting estates are in-directly responsible for a large proportion of the BOP we are able to watch and enjoy today, Bird watchers should thank sporting estates, Perhaps keepers should release more to make up for the shortfall, should the RSPB help cover the cost of releasing more Pheasants to feed BOP? should I get my coat

[scotslad]

Possibly i worded my last post badly, i'm not trying to put buzzards or any other BOP on the GL or advocating a free for all and return to the dark days, quite the oppisate. Since we moved and redesined our pens 3 years ago we hardly get any losess due to BOP now. But i do think a proper debate needs to be had without everyone getting all exicted about it. Nothing nicer than watching BOP's in flight, buzzards soaring in a spring thermal or a perry stoping and taking a pigeon

 

 

I know the info is out there but where DEFRA not hoping to add to that info as well as adding the possibility of relocating problem birds, but the RSPB was not willing to even go there. I think they are running scared as it might show just how damaging some birds can be in certain circumstances (not all birds al the time)

 

It can be no coincedence that pretty much ever bird species numbers are dropping like stones while most predator numbers (and not just raptors) are thriving and rising faster than ever.

 

Is it also a coincidence that the only osprey nest being predated by buzzards happens to be on a sporting estate? 2 chicks on camera have been killed (over 2 years) and a 3rd knocked out of the nest off camera. There will be a fairly high number of osprey nests filmed yet this is the only nest suffering predation. There was also that phenolpe? rare bird that was 'accidental' killed by a 'rogue' buzzard in front of a load of twitchers that didn't know it was only meant to eat worms and road kill. How much other evidence has the RSPB got of predation or nest predation that will never see the light off day. Even there attutuide to grey squirrels if they just stuck there hands up and were honest the squirells will eat eggs and greys are larger live in far higher densities than reds so are far more damaging to bids too,they just think all these animalls live on fresh air

 

Surely the numbers of prey affecting predator numbers only works where the predator is very prey specific so when prey numbers crash predator numbers crash 1 or 2 years later, i didn't realise raptors were so prey specific and thought they were more oportunist would eat almost anything that crossed there path esp in the artifical uk environment, or atleast most of the larger sp are anyway.

 

If rodent populations are falling due to agriculture why are most owl numbers increasing when they occupy a similar niche. The only difference is owls operate at nite. Could it not be that the massive rise in Buzzard numbers is bullying and competion for the smaller kestrel, not even the competion for food but space, when was the last time u seen a kestrel hovering on a motor way side hunting, but u see a buzzard sitting on a fence post every half mile

 

I mentioned about the nature reserves not fledging enough young i was not meaning due just to BOP predation but more just preadtion in general (mammal and corvid are by far worse than BOP) and the fact that many conservationists think that predation has no impact on prey numbers. Yet for the past 30 or so years various agri schemes have thrown money at farmers for various habitat improvements yet bird numbers are still in free fall. No matter how good ur habitat is unless u control predators all ur doing is attracting birds to 1 area making it even easier for predators to target vulnerable species as more concentrated. Doing far more harm than good

U only have to look at any off the GWCT studies into predation to see, but often that does not suit the conservationist stance of leaving wildlife to get on with it and it will all balance out. It won't

 

I'm on the commitee of a couple of local nature reserves and as far as i'm concerned they are usless as far as actual nature conservation goes, (great for education and getting kids out to thou) they will not allow me to control any corvids or stoats, reguarly spotted and photographed but then wonder why they get very few young birds fledging, ur only talking 1 or 2 pair of corbies and 1 or 2 stoats would make all the difference. Not unusual to pick 40+ mallard eggs at a time all been ate by corvids. I've been at them for years but falling on deaf ears

 

I can only speak for my area of scotland and we have always been lucky enough to have quite a decent ammount of fuana around, always had a few BOP's flying about even throu the bad old days (althou that was before my time), and otters too while many areas may not have, but agriculture has not really changed that much, hedges have not been ripped out, ponds drained or many other things that the big bad farmers get blamed with, so sorry but modern agriculture reallly hasn't changed that much here. If anything more hedges have been planted dirty water and slurry systems have been cleaned up

Yet unfortunately there is nothing like the birdlife around that there used to be, unless u count corvids and BOP's, i was 19 and at uni before i seen my first magpie unfortunately not that uncommon here now

 

IN the near future conservationists are going to have to sit down pull there head out off the sand and look around and realise that uncontrolled predation (from all sides not just BOP) is not good for most uk wildlife. It's not rocket science GCT have been preaching it for years same as good keepers (albeit a lot too strongly in the past, but times have changed), 3 legged stool, take 1 leg away it fails