PAV331 Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi all, I've been using an old 682X trap for sporting that I originally brought for trap. I just tried it one day as it just felt all round a better built gun than my later 686 sporter. As soon as I learnt how high the gun shoots I started to shoot well with it and have been using it for sporting now for about 4 months. I like that I can see the target easier without the barrels getting in the way and knowing that all of the pattern is shooting above the bead where I can see it. I've done a couple of CPSA registered shoots recently and I'm a B class shot, I took the long drive to EJ Churchills a couple of days ago and a couple of targets really presented me with problems. Stuff at range, a fast left to right quartering bird which was also dropping slightly from a high trap set on a cherry picker, and a left to right long range battue.. These two stands crippled my score. I understand that these targets were not easy and are there to split the top AA class shots. But the thing thats been playing on my mind is how high my trap gun actually shoots at ranges of say 50-60 yards? when leading the battue for example which I was trying to take just after the apex, I'm trying to calculate the lead (which I know is almost double what you would give a standard) and the drop, but factor into that how high the POI will be at that range! I'm wondering if I can only go so far with this gun when it comes to rangey hard to read birds, and allowing for an ever increasingly high POI the further away they are is just to much for my brain to calculate! I know I probably sound like a workman blaming his tools, and I'm not one to change guns (only my second in 9 years) but I wondering if I should look into trading it in for a good quality sporter with adjustable comb? Opinions from experienced clay shots with a knowledge of gun fit would be very much appreciated thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 If your gun shoots high - it doesn't fit you. There is no reason to have a high shooting gun for anything but trap disciplines. Get the comb lowered or made adjustable - the act of cutting out the comb actually lowers the comb for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterse Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I've got two of those old 682 x traps and the one with the original fixed choke 3/4 and full is the gun I shoot best with at sporting and FITASC sporting. Then I'm not Mr average build wise, I'm nearly 6' 2" with a long neck and the montecarlo stock fits me really well as to not shoot that high. I have found that they do not suit people of a more average build - shooting very high for sporting. As Gordon says you should not have to make allowances for the gun shooting high etc. Having said that the couple of targets you describe can easily be missed by most people. The high quartering dropper can be missed above by trying to swing through the line, I find it's better to start with you gun below the line so that you never lose sight of the clay. Long range battues can be really tricky, on these I used maintained lead so again not to lose sight of the target. What lead to give comes with experience but is usually a lot more than you think. I would pattern your gun at about 35/40 yards to check if it is shooting high. What length barrels do you have and is it multi or fixed? I only ask because if you are getting rid I might be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocean Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 My brother shoots 682 gold E x Trap and only shoots sporting. He wouldn't change as it suits his shooting and he puts in good results with it. Maybe pattern it and see how it does, but don't get hung up on the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAV331 Posted January 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Mine is a 32" that has been teagued and has the Monte Carlo stock with a kick eez. If I were to sell it it wouldn't be for a while has I'd have to find the extra cash for a replacement. I like the gun, especially the trigger and I think maybe the adjustable comb option that Gordon R suggested May the cheapest and most sensible idea. I think it may need lowering a bit more than just the width of the saw blade but I'm sure that can be done. I've heard good things about the gunsmith at Doveridge fitting these so I should probably give him a ring. I know that a few of the top shots use a trap gun for sporting, and that Richard Faulds asked beretta for a trap model which they agreed to as long as it has a sporting forend fitted as they wanted to promote the sales of these more. I wonder if they have it set up to shoot flat(ish) like a sporter and just like the other characteristics of a trap gun, or actually like them because they shoot high?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilR Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 IMHO before going down the route of making alterations to your gun you'd do better to get someone like Beretta on this forum, Ed Solomons or Carl Bloxham watch you shooting it on your problem targets. Chances are you're doing something wrong in your technique which can be easily put right, before getting the saw out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Remove the Monte Carlo and if you fancy it have San adjustable comb fitted. But have it fitted so it shoot flatter and then go for it. I love my 682s including my 32" one that's set to shoot flat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAV331 Posted January 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Remove the Monte Carlo and if you fancy it have San adjustable comb fitted. But have it fitted so it shoot flatter and then go for it. I love my 682s including my 32" one that's set to shoot flat Why do you say to remove the Monte Carlo? It's the one the gun was made with, I don't have another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Removing the "Monte Carlo" is just taking a slice off the top off the stock. Any adjustable device would then be sitting a lot lower - able to properly adjust to the right height. Edited January 5, 2014 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterse Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I would pattern the gun before doing anything to the stock. My one shoots about 70/30 which is more like a trap set up, but that's the way I like it as I can always see the target. I'm not a top shot but I did shoot an 87 and an 88 at the Essex Masters this year with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi, if it is any help, I shoot a Miroku trap gun. I know how much lower the Miroku is to start with, but I stuck it out for some 18 months.I was shooting reasonably well with the gun but dropping targets were always a problem, because of the degree of guesswork involved in the required sight picture (ie :- how much under). I had already exchanged the recoil pad for an Isis Green Pad, so decided to alter the pitch. Apart from changing the pad, the gun was standard. I shimmed the TOP of the recoil pad out by 3/16" using 50 pence sized pieces of sheet lead. This moved the balance back slightly, but more importantly dropped the point of impact by almost 12". You could try this without any damage to your gun and it can be easily removed if it does not work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAV331 Posted January 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi, if it is any help, I shoot a Miroku trap gun. I know how much lower the Miroku is to start with, but I stuck it out for some 18 months.I was shooting reasonably well with the gun but dropping targets were always a problem, because of the degree of guesswork involved in the required sight picture (ie :- how much under). I had already exchanged the recoil pad for an Isis Green Pad, so decided to alter the pitch. Apart from changing the pad, the gun was standard. I shimmed the TOP of the recoil pad out by 3/16" using 50 pence sized pieces of sheet lead. This moved the balance back slightly, but more importantly dropped the point of impact by almost 12". You could try this without any damage to your gun and it can be easily removed if it does not work. Is this an 'accepted' way to make the gun shoot flatter? I would have thought that it's the relation between your eye and the bead only that affects this side of things and not the shoulder/bead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi, I have to say that 'pitch' is probably the most overlooked measurement when people discuss gun fit. The pitch or stand out, varies greatly, even on guns of the same make/model. If you Google shotgun fit and then read some of the articles from people who are far more knowledgeable than I, pitch will be explained in more detail. At least if it does not work, remove and your gun will still measure the same as it does know ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweedledee Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I shot sporting with my browning trap a few weeks back.god it was awful.just didn't swing like my guerini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12boreblue Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Sounds weird that you would consider changing a gun that you say really suits you.... over two targets? Perhaps you are just putting two much emphasis on the gun, when you should put more emphasis on hitting the target. Personally I would go back to that shoot and shoot those two targets until I started hitting them. You state that you have been shooting well with it and putting good scrores in...keep going with that set up I say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Poon Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 IMO go back and use your sporter for sporting needs and your trap gun for trap purposes and stick with that. By the sounds of it you like your sporting discipline more, so keep a that beretta 686 for sporting and changeover to your trap gun when you want to do trap. I'm in a similar sort of (ish) situation to yourself as I devote most of my time at my club with my MX2000S on the sporting layout I had a stock made for me to shoot as flat as a pancake backed up by confirming this on a pattern plate. However I do like the fast fire fun of DTL so I got myself a few months back a MX20005 high rib trap gun as it was set up in the gunshop and my question was how much under do I shoot the bird , you'll know when you smoke the clay was the reply. As I now know where to point the gun for DTL it seems second nature to me for that particular gun. Now to be honest my trap gun I like the most, don't know why no but I seem to be at one with it when I shoot it I've thought of trying to use it on a sporting layout but the thought of aiming low and the bird isn't a rising target seems to mess with my head too much so I stick with one gun for one discipline. I proved myself right by achieving A class in all round discipline with both guns on the day. So go back to your sporter and use that for sporting disciplines and kill those bogey birds, when you miss like most of us will its nowt to do with the weapon of choice it's the person squeezing the trigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAV331 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yes I do prefer shooting sporting to trap, and the only reason I brought a trap gun is because I shoot in a forces team, most of the inter-forces competitions are sporting, but a couple in the season are all rounders and I struggle with DTL so I figured that would help. I now use my 686 for skeet, and the trap gun for everything else. Not sure I could go back to the 686 for sporting now, I ve put many thousands of rounds through it and it's not as 'solid' as it used to be. The barrels flop open when I break it and the trigger on my 682 is far superior, I also prefer the extra weight of the 682. I think I'll maybe stick with it for a bit longer, keep practicing the ' not very straight forward' long range targets and do a couple more registered shoots before I decide if I should change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Why not just get the 686 tightened the the hinge pin and U bolt are cheap to change and will make the gun tight as new again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAV331 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Why not just get the 686 tightened the the hinge pin and U bolt are cheap to change and will make the gun tight as new again. I've thought about having it tightened, but didn't realise it was as easy as replacing a couple of components. What would you guesstimate this would cost at a gunsmiths?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Depends where you are and who you go to.... Perhaps look for a 682 sporter? Edited January 6, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) PAV331, Just to save you possible aggro and wasted time : Pitch is not an accepted way of altering POI, many leading gunsmiths deny it has any affect in this area, it's purpose is to aid fluid gun mount which feels right and to get the gun to recoil correctly. Poor pitch can give horrid cheek slap or on high shots induce the gun to slide out of the shoulder once fired. If you go to a manufacturer and ask to be sold a gun with adjustable POI, they will have adjustable ribs, some will have adjustable barrel hangers and all will have adjustable combs in order to marry up the rib and comb setting correctly. The comb in itself will not alter the POI, not mechanically anyway. Do NOT alter the comb of the 682X - if you read the link I supplied on the other forum you'll see that although the action of a 682(E) sporter and 682X(EX) allow interchange between different stocks, they are manufactured for different shooting stances, one head lowish one head up. The Monte Carlo stock of my 682EX when married to a standard rib gun would give a sight picture as though you were sitting on the rib, i.e, impossibly high and impossible to shoot. A lower stock on a raised rib 682X would have you looking not at and over, but below the rib and be just as unsuitabe. There was a 682X on sale a while back where the owner had shaved the comb down and was selling it on because they couldn't get on with it, no surprise, high rib needs a higher than normal comb to maintain rib / eye alignment. If I was to guess on a scale of 1-10 what your potential problems are that need addressing, POI would be around 11 or 12, not saying it's never a problem but missing a few clays and deciding it must be to blame is to put it kindly an inexperienced take on things. See a good coach, people like Ed Solomon or Ben Husthwaite because they understand combs/ribs and POI, not your average 60 something gun fitter who never has time to shoot clays himself. Edited January 6, 2014 by Hamster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 PAV331, Just to save you possible aggro and wasted time : Pitch is not an accepted way of altering POI, many leading gunsmiths deny it has any affect in this area, it's purpose is to aid fluid gun mount which feels right and to get the gun to recoil correctly. Poor pitch can give horrid cheek slap or on high shots induce the gun to slide out of the shoulder once fired. If you go to a manufacturer and ask to be sold a gun with adjustable POI, they will have adjustable ribs, some will have adjustable barrel hangers and all will have adjustable combs in order to marry up the rib and comb setting correctly. The comb in itself will not alter the POI, not mechanically anyway. Do NOT alter the comb of the 682X - if you read the link I supplied on the other forum you'll see that although the action of a 682(E) sporter and 682X(EX) allow interchange between different stocks, they are manufactured for different shooting stances, one head lowish one head up. The Monte Carlo stock of my 682E when married to a standard rib gun would give a sight picture as though you were sitting on the rib, i.e, impossibly high and impossible to shoot. A lower stock on a raised rib 682X would have you looking not at and over, but below the rib and be just as unsuitabe. There was a 682X on sale a while back where the owner had shaved the comb down and was selling it on because they couldn't get on with it, no surprise, high rib needs a higher than normal comb to maintain rib / eye alignment. If I was to guess on a scale of 1-10 what your potential problems are that need addressing, POI would be around 11 or 12, not saying it's never a problem but missing a few clays and deciding it must be to blame is to put it kindly an inexperienced take on things. See a good coach, people like Ed Solomon, or Ben Husthwaite because they understand combs/ribs and POI, not your average 60 something gun fitter who never has time to shoot himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) The points above demonstrate the advantage of an adjustable comb. It will add value to the gun, whereas taking wood off the comb would reduce its value. Edited January 6, 2014 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 PAV331, Just to save you possible aggro and wasted time : Pitch is not an accepted way of altering POI, many leading gunsmiths deny it has any affect in this area, it's purpose is to aid fluid gun mount which feels right and to get the gun to recoil correctly. Poor pitch can give horrid cheek slap or on high shots induce the gun to slide out of the shoulder once fired. If you go to a manufacturer and ask to be sold a gun with adjustable POI, they will have adjustable ribs, some will have adjustable barrel hangers and all will have adjustable combs in order to marry up the rib and comb setting correctly. The comb in itself will not alter the POI, not mechanically anyway. Do NOT alter the comb of the 682X - if you read the link I supplied on the other forum you'll see that although the action of a 682(E) sporter and 682X(EX) allow interchange between different stocks, they are manufactured for different shooting stances, one head lowish one head up. The Monte Carlo stock of my 682E when married to a standard rib gun would give a sight picture as though you were sitting on the rib, i.e, impossibly high and impossible to shoot. A lower stock on a raised rib 682X would have you looking not at and over, but below the rib and be just as unsuitabe. There was a 682X on sale a while back where the owner had shaved the comb down and was selling it on because they couldn't get on with it, no surprise, high rib needs a higher than normal comb to maintain rib / eye alignment. If I was to guess on a scale of 1-10 what your potential problems are that need addressing, POI would be around 11 or 12, not saying it's never a problem but missing a few clays and deciding it must be to blame is to put it kindly an inexperienced take on things. See a good coach, people like Ed Solomon, or Ben Husthwaite because they understand combs/ribs and POI, not your average 60 something gun fitter who never has time to shoot himself. Why would a 60 something gun fitter want to shoot himself ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Why would a 60 something gun fitter want to shoot himself ? Just goes to show you can take all the care with commas and full stops and still mess up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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