Kes Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 As it says - apparently there was fuel for 20 mins on board but both engines failed as they received no fuel. Must be an exceptional failure - more info to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Link to the AAIB interim report. http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/special_bulletins/s2_2014___eurocopter_ec135_t2___g_spao.cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 A very interesting preliminary report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Ok report to to made public this week so I can tell you what caused the engine failure. The ec135 has 2 sets of fuel pumps one set in the main tank and another set in the engine tanks which supply the engines on start up. During the flight for some reason the main fuel pumps were switched off. Which would have raised a warning light on the panel and an alarm noise in helmet which the pilot cancelled. Then another set of warning lights appeared to warn of low fuel in the engine fuel tanks which was cancelled. The helicopter ran out of fuel and dropped 700ft. So for some reason after pilot had switched off fuel pumps and several warnings were ignored and cancelled it crashed. Unfortunately only the pilot and observer will ever know why they possibly caused it to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppythedog Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The rotors were stopped on impact? I thought they would continue rotating with air flow as with a gyrocopter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Andy it's not quite as simplistic as you make it out to be. There are 2 pumps in the main fuel tank and if the sensors indicate that they are running empty they have to be switched off. That's really the only reason you switch the fuel pumps off. You don't run the pumps on empty. The question that needs asking is why he switched the pumps off if there was still fuel in the main. Poppy if you loose rotor speed at less than 700 ft you will struggle to get if back and the blades will stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parapilot Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Would the pilot have turned the pumps off as part of the emergency procedure prior to impact??. Was there data to say they were turned off in flight or was it just how the switches were found?? Find it hard to believe a experienced pilot could ignore that many warnings. Never flown helicopters so don't know how it all works! Edited February 20, 2014 by parapilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bad lindz Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I may be wrong but was there not a fault identified on the fuel gauges across the Europe wide fleet this particular helicopter shortly after the tragic accident and the helicopters were grounded. Would the pumps not switch of automatically on a low level fuel being indicated ? On a slightly different aspect to helicopter safety, the recommendations announced today for the North Sea fleet of helicopters regarding one passenger per window and applying bad weather / sea state operations will have an enormous effect on how the North Sea oil company's arrange there crew changes. Most company's already operate some kind of weather conditions restrictions but I think the reductions in the seating capacity will have a big impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The fuel pumps in the main tank were turned off by the pilot.. but it is also the observers job to notify of the huge red warning light on dash and alarms ringing in their ear pieces. But for some reason the pilot just cancelled the warnings several times until engines stopped, and the observer also didn't make any ground contact of the problem. All very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The pumps would be turned off when the the forward or aft fuel pump warning light comes on. They are not automatically operated. It's a manual thing. It's not the sort of thing you would do in an emergency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 You don't just cancell the warning for the fuel pumps. You physically switch them off. Its not just a case of the pilot ignoring it. Trust me everyone in the crew would be aware that the fuel is getting low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 You don't just cancell the warning for the fuel pumps. You physically switch them off. Its not just a case of the pilot ignoring it. Trust me everyone in the crew would be aware that the fuel is getting low. But there was still fuel onboard 50+kg? I read the AAIB preliminary report but didn't understand the technicalities fully, there was an issue with the fuel level senders identified and a recommendation to fly with more reserve fuel. But both engines shut down (lack of fuel?) pumps tested after the crash were functional as were all other systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The issue with the fuel sensors only came to light after the crash on another aircraft of the same type operated by Bond. The fuel left in the Police Scotland aircraft was in the main tank not the two supply tanks that feed the engines. That's about 20 minutes of fuel they had left on board and they were 1 mile from a safe landing back at base. That's 30 seconds of flying. If they had known there was fuel left in the main do you think they would have switched off the fuel pumps from the main to supply tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 If they had known there was fuel left in the main do you think they would have switched off the fuel pumps from the main to supply tanks? what if it was deliberate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 never liked helicopters,,,,looking forward to the report on this as its starting to sound very interesting atb Evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ok report to to made public this week so I can tell you what caused the engine failure. How do you know what caused it if the report has not been published? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypaint Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 It's now on the aaib website. The investigation only gives the facts found and not any whys to the accident. I work in the helicopter industry Its all very sad and I hope they do get to the bottom of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 what if it was deliberate? Are you suggesting the pilot deliberately ran out of fuel and killed all those people? The AAIB report is an intrim report not a final one and it does not draw any conclusions or apportion blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpha Mule Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 From 700 feet they should have been able to auto-rotate (all Navy chopper pilots are taught how) to manage a much more controlled landing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 If they had known there was fuel left in the main do you think they would have switched off the fuel pumps from the main to supply tanks? British Midlands Flight 092. Sometimes given the circumstances things happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 From 700 feet they should have been able to auto-rotate (all Navy chopper pilots are taught how) to manage a much more controlled landing? Correct but they ran out of rotor speed and dropped like a stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 British Midlands Flight 092. Sometimes given the circumstances things happen. I that case 2 pilots had time to react and basic checks should have told them they had shut the wrong engine down. Their instruments were working. If they had asked passengers or the cabin crew they could have told them which engine failed. In the Glasgow crash they had about 30 seconds to react at night over a city centre. Suggestions at the moment are that their instruments failed them. Very different scenarios in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I that case 2 pilots had time to react and basic checks should have told them they had shut the wrong engine down. Their instruments were working. If they had asked passengers or the cabin crew they could have told them which engine failed. In the Glasgow crash they had about 30 seconds to react at night over a city centre. Suggestions at the moment are that their instruments failed them. Very different scenarios in my opinion. In common with the vast majority, I do not know what happened in the helicopter so am not qualified to offer an opinion and simply stated a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpha Mule Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Correct but they ran out of rotor speed and dropped like a stone. You turn the blade angle down so the fall through the air drives the blades ta high speed, but creates no lift, then as you get close to the ground (hopefully the blades are now rotating at a good speed and have a decent amount of momentum) you pull up on the cyclic and produce lift, thus reducing your fall rate. I watched it being done when I was stationed at HMS Daedalus. Scary stuff, but it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpha Mule Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I that case 2 pilots had time to react and basic checks should have told them they had shut the wrong engine down. Their instruments were working. If they had asked passengers or the cabin crew they could have told them which engine failed. In the Glasgow crash they had about 30 seconds to react at night over a city centre. Suggestions at the moment are that their instruments failed them. Very different scenarios in my opinion. If this was the A320 Airbus, check out the size of the instruments that show which engine was vibrating too much. They are low down in the centre of the display console and can be covered by a 20p coin. The crew advised that a bang was heard on one side of the craft, which it turns out was the wrong one. The Airbus' were flown when there was over a hundred known faults. I really don't like them! There is a litany of things that have gone wrong with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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