Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[David BASC]

I have no doubts that Canada goose populations may vary from site to site, year to year;but the evidence I have seen on national counts is that in the sights where the numbers have grown, the level of growth is more than in the sites where numbers have fallen.

 

People cannot rattle them when ever they want, they must comply with the terms of the GL, or at the moment their SL

[Terry P]

David you have kind of answered my question re the voting of WLC by saying you have no idea what they voted or what was said, you failed to tell me what clubs or individuals were consulted.

It seems to me BASC just looked at areas of supposed number increases and ran with them rather than look at the whole issue in depth. You state that people will have to stick to the rules of the GL, well all anyone has to quote is crop protection and they are safe.

Could I ask to the legality of a fowling club if they so choose, to shoot geese all year round on their marsh if there were barley fields in the area, by simple quoting crop protection. BASC are coming out of this looking very bad, poorly informed. easily lead and ingnorant of a section of its memberships wishes.

Surely as a paid member of staff you can find out what the WLC recommended the Council do, and if it was against it, on who's recommendations did the all seeing council vote this shambles through.

[David BASC]

Terry, I do know the sites that have been monitored for canada's remained constant.

 

I will certainly look into the legality of a wildfowling club shooting 52 weeks a year if you really want me to, but I think we all know no clubs will do this will they?

 

As a paid employee I do not have carte blanche access to all minutes of all meetings so if you wish to question further the details than I am afraid you will have to contact the Chief Exec

[Terry P]

So its constant now and not increasing. I would be staggered if a club chose to do that but it goes to prove how the GL could be open to abuse and remember many fowlers do so inland.

I was not expecting you to have carte blanche to the minutes, I would just like to now what way the WLC recommended Council.

[David BASC]

I was not clear, what I mean was the sites monitored are consistent - ie the same sites are monitored. Some sites are at or slightly lower in Canada count than they were before the GL, the others have higher counts, and the number of higher counts is greater than the number of low counts.

 

As to the WLC etc as I say this is not within my remit so the Ch Exec is you best point of contact, never the less advisory committees are there to advise not make policy decisions, that rests with Council.

 

Regards

 

David

[muncher]

Well I am up for it as BASC seem to have picked their team (not sure who's it is but it sure aint wildfowlers). How do we go about this? Most important remember the deadline for response to NE closes soon

Where do I find this site to give my response to this crazy idea .

[David BASC]

Here it is: http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/licences/wildlifelicensingconsultation.aspx

 

David

[kent]

I have a report today that I cannot yet confirm 100% the WLC voted against the proposal and the council still voted in favour. This means the WLC is a waste of space if its recommendations are ignored. The council - well there is a vote at the AGM mainly covering paying their expenses so interested parties can turn up and have their say on that, likewise "any other business"

[kent]

Here you are kent, although I don't think that there will enough room for us all to bang ours heads against.

 

 

 

Hey all you need is the right tools and manpower and you can bust right through that wall

[hedd-wyn]

This whole thing stinks, and it's making me feel uneasy to be honest.

[David BASC]

As I have said on this topic, and on other topics on this forum in the past, BASC advisory committees are just that, they offer advice, its Council that make the final decision on policy based on all evidence presented.

 

On this specific issue, as clearly sated previously, it was not just the WLC that offered a view.

 

David

[IEH]

David,

 

Since we're talking about wildfowl here it would be entirely reasonable to presume that the WLC was better placed than other parties to offer an informed opinion. Yet, if as a number of us understand but you seem either unable (and I find that difficult to believe) or unwilling to confirm, it seems their advice was ignored?

[kent]

As I have said on this topic, and on other topics on this forum in the past, BASC advisory committees are just that, they offer advice, its Council that make the final decision on policy based on all evidence presented.

 

On this specific issue, as clearly sated previously, it was not just the WLC that offered a view.

 

David

No point in having advisers if you don't listen to their advice, nobody is better placed on this issue IF your listeners loyalty lay were it should. Ok so only 7000 but I am not so sure such high handedness wont effect more over time. Who is next on the hit list I wonder

[David BASC]

Good evening IEH,

 

The consultation on GL is about agricultural damage and human health issues so is broader than wildfowling, hence the reason not just the WLC were consulted on this issue, all points had to be taken in the whole by Council.

 

As we say on the web page on the BASC site, our support is not about reducing the population as a whole, and certainly is not intended in any way to have a negative impact on those who shoot geese on the foreshore or inland within the season, its about allowing farmers and others to control when needed with the minimum of fuss.

 

Lets remember that in the period of 2005-2011 over 90,000 eggs have been destroyed and a further 15,000 greylags killed by shooting or injection. Yet the population is on the increase.

 

There would have to be a massive explosion in people wanting to shoot greylags during the summer or early autumn to add significantly to the number already being culled, and as I have said before I can see a massive appetite for this - can you?

 

As to listening to the advice of others Kent - I understand what you are saying, but remember this issue is not just about wildfowling, and Council had to take its decision based on all the information it was presented with - how many times have any of us had conflicting advice on an issue, balanced up what we've been advised and then made a decision?

 

Anyway, please remember that from day 1 we have been encouraging members to respond as well, but of course you don't have to take my advice.....

 

David

Edited May 7, 2014 by David BASC

[Reabrook]

.There would have to be a massive explosion in people wanting to shoot greylags during the summer or early autumn to add significantly to the number already being culled, and as I have said before I can see a massive appetite for this - can you?

Yes!

[anser2]

Quote “But as said several days ago- why on earth do any of you think BASC would do anything that could harm wildfowling or any other form of shooting?”

 

Simple by their actions. Supporting the GL shows that clearly, First its against the very ethics of a wildfowler which you clearly do not understand and secondly it will reduce the numbers of quarry as the numbers where greylag control shows. Conor is on the wildfowl forum ask him to let you look at the comments and information on there .The impact of Canada control in Norfolk is shown there and in the two major goose areas looked at one had a stable and one a declining greylag population. I am sorry David with almost every reply you give you show that your knowledge of wildfowl biology and wildfowling is not enough to answer the questions posed on here. Its not your fault you cant be an expert on everything and you are a very good PR man , but BASC should be fielding their head of wildfowling to answer these questions. He was at a club meeting a few weeks ago and the members and I left him in little doubt of our feelings on the subject.

 

 

Quote “Your presumption is that there will be significant increase in the number of greylags shot because they are causing agricultural damage if they go onto GL and that will have an impact on the number of greylags you will see in the season.”

There does not have to be a significant number shot to have a big impact on the population. For every breeding adult pair shot a whole brood is lost and even if only one adult is killed the chances of juvenile mortality is greatly increased.

 

Quote “However, given that greylags have been shot outside of the season for years already , all be it under SL, and their numbers are increasing, where is the is the evidence for this predicted increase in shooting that will drop the population you see from September onwards?”

 

With just 50 SL issued every year the impact on the population is likely to be much less than if greylags go on the GL. Remember the number allowed on licence is rarely reached .

 

Quote “I have no doubts that Canada goose populations may vary from site to site, year to year;but the evidence I have seen on national counts is that in the sights where the numbers have grown, the level of growth is more than in the sites where numbers have fallen.”

 

But have you looked at a site by site basis, On a site with a large increase will mask other sites that are stable or even declining. The BTO counts for canadas and do show an increase in the UK population however it only illustrates part of the story. A break down of the major sites in 2012 shows 6 sites having increases and 4 declines. On this forum you have wildfowlers from all over the country telling they are seeing and shooting fewer canadas. So at the very least BASC should have trawled every major site for the count trends. Also why is BASC bag returns at odds with what wildfowlers are telling you? Again this tells us there is something wrong with with your data collection, is it you have one club that is shooting exceptional numbers or is your data including geese shot on private inland sites or shot under the GL?

 

 

By now you must be realising the damage this topic is doing to the image of shooting and BASCs image and If I was a prospective member the one organisation I would not be joining for the first time was BASC.

 

BASC look at the question again , do in depth research from bird counts covering all the major sites , ask grass roots wildfowling members for their comments and ask your selves have you made the right call not for NE but for your membership.

Edited May 7, 2014 by anser2

[motty]

Well said Anser!

[David BASC]

I am sorry that you feel my replies and comments are lacking in understanding and knowledge, so in that context I trust you feel my continued contribution to this discussion is pointless and useless, so I will bow out.

 

Best wishes

 

David

[TriBsa]

 

By now you must be realising the damage this topic is doing to the image of shooting and BASCs image and If I was a prospective member the one organisation I would not be joining for the first time was BASC.

 

Exactly. As a returning shooter, after a lapse of many years, I was about to take the plunge and join BASC seeing it as the best fit to my needs and views. However after reading this thread I'm certainly having second thoughts. The chairman of the BASC council being an ex director of Natural England seems all too close and pally for my liking. BASC, from this thread, seems to be a microcosm of what's so wrong with so many organisations, quangos and government nowadays. A political elite who know whats best for their members and ignore their views.

 

Tom

[islandgun]

so everyone where do we go from here, is there a way to make our collective voice heard ?

[Grandalf]

anser 2 - A perfectly reasoned response to BASC's comments.

Now David has 'bowed out'. He knows that all his/BASC's comments are being shot out of the water so he 'bows out'.

Why not get one of the BASC experts in the field - Head of Wildfowling or Head or Bio-Diversity to take over?

islandgun - Yes there is something we all can do. Bombard BASC with emails and letters on the subject. Get all clubs and organisations to do the same.

TriBsa - You have a very good point about the ex Director of Natural England now being the Chairman of the BASC Council. Many of raised concerns at the time of the appointment.

 

First step - Email to Mark Greenhaugh, head of Wildfowling at BASC.

[riptide]

I have a report today that I cannot yet confirm 100% the WLC voted against the proposal and the council still voted in favour. This means the WLC is a waste of space if its recommendations are ignored. The council - well there is a vote at the AGM mainly covering paying their expenses so interested parties can turn up and have their say on that, likewise "any other business"

 

Good morning Kent, The WLC did not come to a conclusion at the meeting held during the lunch break at the Wildfowling Conference due to not having a full turn out of members so a e-mail was sent to all to be replied to during the following week, as I understand it not all members replied but dont forget some sit on council so will have been able to express their views at that meeting. I got in touch at a later date to see the outcome of that e-mail sent to all and the position was that about a 7 to 5 against using a GL to be able to shoot Greys and 6 to 4 against using a GL to destroy Grey and Mallard nests and eggs. So it seems it was approx a 60 / 40 vote .Also as I understand it no written recomdation was put to council just a verbal one from the members who sit on both...As I sit on the WLC and made my opposition to the change in status for Greys and mallard perfectly clear and I feel spoke vigorously for their to be no change.. But we have to remember that Council represents a lot of interests so if one is out voted then that is democracy in action! No different than at my clubs meetings, a show of hands decides!! But the important thing is that a lot of background information needs to be available for a fair vote to take place... And I must say Anser2 has a large depth of knowledge on this, in fact probably by the accounts he has made, greater than Basc them. One other point is that the number of Birds and eggs/nests destroyed by the use of SL has not been confirmed as what was done or what was allowed to be done...Did 90,000 eggs get destroyed or were 90,000 the limit by SL and did 15,000 greys get killed or was that the SL limit ? Were I help control Brent’s by SL we have a 40 bird limit on the SL this is not always reached ,If it is we then reapply if we need to control more which I am led to believe is just a phone call and a letter to confirm .. I am a member of the Wildfowling Forum and have kept my posts to their so far ... Hope this is of help?

 

Riptide

[edenman]

Vote with your feet, or with hold basc membership subs until this crazy decision is overturned.

[Grandalf]

Mark Greenhough. Head of wildfowling at BASC.

Email at

Mark.Greenhaugh@basc.org.uk

[Fal]

I've just scanned through this topic, I seriously find all this hard to believe.