kent Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Bag returns do nor indicate the numbers of birds with any credibility, they represent were the birds were and were not that year (last season bags were down due to inland flooding and lack of hard frost) Wildfowl counts are not quick and accurate enough to monitor the impact on slow breeding birds like geese that cannot breed the summer after their birth like most birds and can only raise one brood. Greylag geese were hunted out completely 100 years ago in their lowland resident breeding form Only 30 SL were applied for culling greylag in 2012 all were granted, this is reason against GL not for it Smashing up of Mallard nest was an even lower rate only 7 nest spoiling licences- Yeah lets have a national GL on them (how idiotic) In these things decisions are mostly made before the consultation, it even says NE doesn't need to heed any advice and its not the most popular choice that wins (basically its not democratic and its not a debate) what it is is a big stick to beat people with and a medium for passing the buck when it all goes wrong) BASC have let us down badly in this, they will not be forgiven. The challenges BASC will face will come after the 19th in dealing with the bad PR, the membership losses and lack of trust that will occur and the further fragmentation of a common fighting force against the anti. If numbers of either bird crashes I can here the buck being passed back from NE now to BASC "you told us this was ok" the press " Britains biggest shooting org wants more killing of Geese even with dependant young". Below is NE description of a GL User Unknown General assessment of merits Generic conditions No reports No Limits No Compliance checking Unable to assess impact (take note on this final point "unable to assess impact" it means no safety net no turning back the clock ) The consultation ends 5pm on the 19th ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 The time for BASC bashing is past (for now), we have vented our anger, had our say and debated the topic. The only option open now is to directly email BASC with constructive alternatives to give BASC a face saving way to get out of this mess before the closing date for NEs consultations ( May 19th.) I have sent an email to BASC and I urge everyone who is against greylag going on the GL to do so. Many on here will have done so I have , but it would still be valuable to provide your thoughts to them. Be polite and to the point , keeping your suggestions brief and clear. Many points have been raised on this thread from local control to longer seasons but some may have become lost in the heated parts of the debate. We have to understand that the status quo is unlikely to continue and provide viable alternatives make sure BASC is aware of these and urge them to adopt such polices when dealing with NE. It would also be good to add a sentence pointing out the role wildfowlers have played within BASC over the years and the voluntary work many have done for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 The time for BASC bashing is past (for now), we have vented our anger, had our say and debated the topic. The only option open now is to directly email BASC with constructive alternatives to give BASC a face saving way to get out of this mess before the closing date for NEs consultations ( May 19th.) I have sent an email to BASC and I urge everyone who is against greylag going on the GL to do so. Many on here will have done so I have , but it would still be valuable to provide your thoughts to them. Be polite and to the point , keeping your suggestions brief and clear. Many points have been raised on this thread from local control to longer seasons but some may have become lost in the heated parts of the debate. We have to understand that the status quo is unlikely to continue and provide viable alternatives make sure BASC is aware of these and urge them to adopt such polices when dealing with NE. It would also be good to add a sentence pointing out the role wildfowlers have played within BASC over the years and the voluntary work many have done for them. Probably a waste of time. Members will have to INSTRUCT not request. You know the only way to do that is an SGM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) There is no time for a SGM. BASCs comments have to be submited to NE by the 19th of May. The important object is to change BASCs submission before that date. Any further dissagreements in the way BASC has delt with this issue can be delt with later. It may be a waste of time , but if members do not contact BASC the odds of change are non existant with a number of members writing in there is a slim chance of a reverse and a slim chance is better than no chance. Edited May 16, 2014 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 There is no time for a SGM. BASCs comments have to be submited to NE by the 19th of May. The important object is to change BASCs submission before that date. Any further dissagreements in the way BASC has delt with this issue can be delt with later. It may be a waste of time , but if members do not contact BASC the odds of change are non existant with a number of members writing in there is a slim chance of a reverse and a slim chance is better than no chance. You are absolutely right - This is the only chance we have of getting the correct submission to NE on the 19th May. Write them, phone them, email them - Send them smoke signals if you want - But contact them and let them know your views. Make sure your club does as well. It's a slim chance because they seem to have lost their sanity - But it is the only chance we have. Contact BASC today - and tomorrow. Get all your fowling buddies to do so as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireboy Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 well i have emailed B.A.S.C with why i think its not a good idea can only hope they see fit to stand up for whats right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misser Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 personally not particularly interested in figures and bag returns etc...not through lethargy rather more that figures at times can be misrepresented and misleading to say the least.....wont dwell on the subject, in my view its unethical....respect David (BASC's) almost General Custer like stand and can appreciate that he is between a rock and a hard place.....emailed BASC wildfowling department to disagree with BASC's stance on the GL...just a few lines and club memberships details...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) Spartina, Good evening, and thank you for your questions. I will ask my colleague who has been collating the email responses if members identified their shooting preference. Very few inputs came in before Councils draft position was posted on the web as far as I know but again I will check. We did ask all club reps at the Wildfowling conference, to look at the NE proposal and send us their thoughts, I think 5 did. The last set of totals I saw, all be it about 2 days ago, was 90% for our drat response Approximately 2/3 of our clubs send returns Yes I have heard of the term broken covenant Regards David With all due respect David you know as well as i do your 90% would have absolutely no interest at all in the section concerning Greylags just as the wildfowling community would have no interest in the rest of your consultation replies they are supporting the whole package because a lot does not effect them . Now if you can honestly tell me that comments made specifically on the addition of Greylags onto the GL are 90 % in favour i would struggle to believe you .I would add that members getting in touch with BASC specificaly over the Greylag issue would certainly be 99% against because they are the members that it effects. Your statement could be described as deliberately misleading. Edited May 16, 2014 by holloway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I was asked questions and I answered them - now I am accused of potentially being misleading? Please give me a break! If you want I will be happy give you the total number of members who have been in touch over this issue and how many are against our position...but regardless of the figures I assume you would say I am still misleading people, despite the fact all members have been encouraged to get in touch, and wildfowlers in particular at the Wildfowling Conference in March and via plenty of prompts on this very thread.... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riptide Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Thanks Robert ,I have sent this to Conor , Tim Russell,and Richard Ali . NEs Consultation on GLs Dear sirs THE main issue of great concern is should greys go on the GL or remain on SL, it seems the vast majority who have been posting on forums and discussing in wildfowling clubs are happy with them staying on a SL which is far away better than letting them go on a GL as it seems BASC council is going to recommend to NE,, You could so easily have agreed to some of the consultation proposals and not others. On Greys moving to a GL to allow round the year shooting you should in my humble opinion have begged to differ!! In fact still could if you were to contact all council members to recheck what they are minded to do... The problem is the majority of Council members will not have seen all the posts and comments ,facts and figures that have been shown on these forum pages and in other ways like direct E-Mails to Marford Mill and in all probability might not even be aware of our disgruntlement at all !!!!..And for those same Council members to be called upon to come to a response with only a limited time for debate at their last council meeting so soon after the Wildfowling Conference were it was clear from the floor that delegates were not in agreement with NE proposed changes, then having been persuaded that it was the best course of action to agree with NE drew up or backed the Draft response which has outraged a large element of the wildfowling community..I call on you to review this position immediately otherwise you stand to ostracize a very large amount of your core supporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 With all due respect David you know as well as i do your 90% would have absolutely no interest at all in the section concerning Greylags just as the wildfowling community would have no interest in the rest of your consultation replies they are supporting the whole package because a lot does not effect them . Now if you can honestly tell me that comments made specifically on the addition of Greylags onto the GL are 90 % in favour i would struggle to believe you .I would add that members getting in touch with BASC specificaly over the Greylag issue would certainly be 99% against because they are the members that it effects. Your statement could be described as deliberately misleading. Yes i would like to know how many members have been in touch commenting SPECIFICALY on basc support to include Greys on the GL i do not mean a general support of the whole document.And to be fair there would have been little or no comment on the matter from wildfowlers until basc published its support because nobody would have believed in a million years that our own shooting representative would have supported it !! Hence all the bad feeling . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I might have hoped most did contact BASC to highlight their thoughts and feelings before commenting on the thread, still better late than never. I am standing down from this thread and forum matters generally for a while. I have some extra additional personal health issues that have come to light surrounding my shoulder op the other day and am pretty much full to the brim with painkillers. Added to this a very close family member has just yesterday had a stroke at only 33 years old so I am not really in the right frame of mind to suffer fools gladly at present and its highly likely I will offend, I had a bit of a go at my Physiotherapist today (which was completely unjustified) so I am obviously not doing ok with all this around my neck. Please can anyone PM me if support is needed on this very important matter though. The best place for me at present is sat with a fishing rod in my hand etc. All the best Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Kent, personally I wish you and your close family member all the very best, I am sorry to hear of the heath problems, I pray for a good end to this. Holloway - as of when I left the office we had 261 emails from members, some were individual replies some replied on behalf of their club, I would also say that to the best of my knowledge this is the largest number of people who have replied to an issue we have posted on our web. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Kent, very sorry to hear that and hope you and your close family member a good recovery. best wishes Conor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Kent, personally I wish you and your close family member all the very best, I am sorry to hear of the heath problems, I pray for a good end to this. Holloway - as of when I left the office we had 261 emails from members, some were individual replies some replied on behalf of their club, I would also say that to the best of my knowledge this is the largest number of people who have replied to an issue we have posted on our web. David Thankyou for that David ,so you are saying that from those 261 emails specific to the Greylag issue and bearing in mind that most clubs will have at least 50 members 90% were in favour of adding Greylag geese to the GL.?....... Sorry to offend with accusation of misleading uncalled for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Holloway, I was not offended, but thanks anyway The vast majority of the replies were from individuals, I will have to look at the info again on Monday get a better idea on the number of club replies, as more may come in over the weekend and of course I don't know if the person replying was simply stating that they were the chair or other senior officer of a club and their club had held a General Meeting on the issue or whether they were simply replying as an individual, but I do know of one club that was supportive has over 100 members. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Kent sorry to hear your news , I think you hve the best theropy by taking the rod out. Best wishes with the forthcomming op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 good luck Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry P Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Holloway, I was not offended, but thanks anyway The vast majority of the replies were from individuals, I will have to look at the info again on Monday get a better idea on the number of club replies, as more may come in over the weekend and of course I don't know if the person replying was simply stating that they were the chair or other senior officer of a club and their club had held a General Meeting on the issue or whether they were simply replying as an individual, but I do know of one club that was supportive has over 100 members. David A actual wildfowling club is in favour of the greylag goose going on the GL. Really, I am stunned. Was it a committee decision or was it put to its members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misser Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 good luck Kent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I have e-mailed BASC (to CEO and Chairman) asking for reconsideration of the stated position of BASC on the inclusion of Greylag on the GL in the consultation response to EN. Sadly for me, its a make or break issue and responses have lacked commitment to the Membership I had expected. Instead of creating a super -org I now find myself likely to join a 'splinter' group. I fully understand that you can't keep all of the people happy all of the time, but this was a mistake and BASC arent big enough or honest enough to recongise it IMVHO. Sad to hear your news Kent, I hope the future is much brighter than the present for you. Edited May 17, 2014 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 All the best kent . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Morning Terry, I do not know if any of the members who have replied telling us they are the officer of the club has done so just as an individual or if they have had a GM to come to a decision as a club, by either vote or consensus decision. As you say Kes we cant please all the people all the time, and thank you for your feedback. All I can say is that although Council have made their decision on BASC policy position, and although the majority of the feedback thus far has been supporting Councils position on the GL I know some will not be happy with the final outcome, but I am convinced that if we keep working together we will all come through this and be better and stronger. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 David, after the 19th is there any way to change ur position for Basc? I would imagine basc will be a stakeholder group or wotever they calll them Usually the GL's are issued on 1st Jan, so plenty of time to lobby till the actual GL comes out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 David, after the 19th is there any way to change ur position for Basc? I would imagine basc will be a stakeholder group or wotever they calll them Usually the GL's are issued on 1st Jan, so plenty of time to lobby till the actual GL comes out I dont think that will happen, if it did then it would restore some of my faith. I dont see compromise in any of Davids words, as I also dont see a realisation that the stated opinions a small group of select interest should outweigh the uninterested majority membership, even in such a special case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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