Davyo Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Just heard of mate Durham been on news 2 FEO's apparently dispatched a deer with a crow bar.Apparently they had firearms as where specially sent to deal with it.But chose to use a crow bar from the police car.Poss less paper work Edited July 30, 2014 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 What was a deer doing with a crow bar? Up to no good I expect - good riddance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 BBC News, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-28558929 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les*1066 Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 'Police firearms officer shoots himself whilst trying to pry open a padlock with his H&K MP5.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted July 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Putting a variation in for a crowbar.Off out now lamping when I find that bloody hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Total waste of tax payers money, I wouldnt think twice about using a crowbar to dispatch a suffering deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Total waste of tax payers money, I wouldnt think twice about using a crowbar to dispatch a suffering deer. Exactly, perfectly legal and probably safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Total waste of tax payers money, I wouldnt think twice about using a crowbar to dispatch a suffering deer. If you didnt have a bolt gun/ pistol you were trained to use in these situations to hand fine. Exactly, perfectly legal and probably safer. Only legal if humane and thats a tough call, what does the HSA say about crowbars? If all done as per their procedures then no problem. Edited July 30, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am a little confused, were these FEOs or armed response. The way i have read it, these are AR.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am a little confused, were these FEOs or armed response. The way i have read it, these are AR.... I read it that way too,Firearms officers not licensing dept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Also, looking at the time of the incident, would FEOs be working at that time... think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 If you didnt have a bolt gun/ pistol you were trained to use in these situations to hand fine. Only legal if humane and thats a tough call, what does the HSA say about crowbars? If all done as per their procedures then no problem. HSA have nothing to do with it, this is humane killing not humane slaughter. The Regulatory Reform (Deer) Order 2007 specifically addressed this and made it perfectly legal when preventing suffering. To quote: “(4A) In subsection (4) above, “any reasonable means” means any method of killing a deer that can reasonably be expected to result in rapid loss of consciousness and death and which is appropriate in all the circumstances (including in particular what the deer is doing, its size, its distance from the closest position safely attainable by the person attempting to kill the deer and its position in relation to vegetative cover).”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Also, looking at the time of the incident, would FEOs be working at that time... think not. The article I read clearly stated that they were armed response who had been called out to deal with the injured beast. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-28558929 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 That's how i read it but others have confused the phrase "firearms officers" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) That's how i read it but others have confused the phrase "firearms officers" Thats a normal term for Armed response. HSA have nothing to do with it, this is humane killing not humane slaughter. The Regulatory Reform (Deer) Order 2007 specifically addressed this and made it perfectly legal when preventing suffering. To quote: “(4A) In subsection (4) above, “any reasonable means” means any method of killing a deer that can reasonably be expected to result in rapid loss of consciousness and death and which is appropriate in all the circumstances (including in particular what the deer is doing, its size, its distance from the closest position safely attainable by the person attempting to kill the deer and its position in relation to vegetative cover).”. HSA also offer guidance on Emergency slaughter which this would have been http://www.hsa.org.uk/emergency-slaughter-introduction/introduction-5 There are a variety of methods available for emergency killing of animals: Lethal injection Free-bullet firearms Captive-bolt stunning followed by bleeding or pithing External trauma followed by bleeding External traumaInfant lambs, kids and piglets can be humanely killed by delivering a heavy blow to the head. This must only be used if no other method is immediately available. There are two variations of this method: Hold the animal by the back legs and deliver a firm blow to the back of the head with a blunt instrument, e.g. an iron bar or hammer. Hold the animal by the back legs and swing it through an arc to hit the back of its head with considerable force against a solid object, e.g. a brick wall or metal stanchion. With both methods it is essential that the blow is delivered swiftly, firmly and with absolute determination. If there is any doubt that the animal has not been killed effectively, the blow should be immediately repeated.Death should be ensured by bleeding the animal by cutting the throat from ear to ear to sever both carotid arteries and both jugular veins. An alternative method is to insert the knife into the base of the neck towards the entrance of the chest to sever all the major blood vessels where they emerge from the heart. More information: Bleeding. http://www.hsa.org.uk/species-recommendations/species-recommendations DeerDeer may be killed using captive-bolt stunning immediately followed by bleeding or pithing; shotguns; humane killers; rifles; or lethal injection. Edited July 30, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Don't see a problem. Couple of blows at most and no more pain and suffering, would think one clout from a crowbar would do it,so no difference to a bolt gun or bullet in instantaneous death. The location of the animal might have made the use of a firearm dangerous. Far to much scrutiny in these cases for me, if its put out of its misery the how don't matter. Figgy Edited July 31, 2014 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Vehicle full of guns, plus a crowbar ! Sounds like 'going equipped to me' . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Use of captive bolt the requires pithing, as long as they followed procedure no bother... The fact it's being investigated suggests that use of a crowbar is not in the handbook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Given that regulations may control but dont help in these situations and the real issue was humane despatch, not method, metal bars and hammers are recommended for small animals - piglets etc as is banging their heads very hard at the base of the skull on a solid object such as concrete or metal, followed by 'bleeding out'. A crow bar could be used to stun effectively but only when followed by bleeding. Basically we dont know enough to comment. Its interesting to note that the ACPO review of the Derek Bird firearms process grant concluded that pistols granted for humane dispatch were not achieving what, in his view, parliament required, given that police were in control of this process and knew parliamentary intent via Home Office Guidance and ACPO, this semms a strange comment to make. The real mistake has to have been being visible to people who could be offended by means of despatch and secondly to use personal initative where a Code of Operational Procedure may have applied. I hope they are not prosecuted but instead go on a PR course, provided they bled the deer with a 'very sharp knife of blade length not less than 5 ". Where do all these regulations, guides, codes of best practice, ACOP's come from and why? No substitute for experience and perhaps only capable shooters can provide that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think the issue is the2 normal officers could of put if out its misery using this method so the animal suffered as a result of armed response being called out to kill it with a bar when this could of been done immediately the normal offices came across the deer.so I think that's the reason the officers reported the armed response.So the animal suffered from the time they called in to the time the response unit arrived it's not about the method used it's the time involved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Maughan Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) They really should have better things to worry about, the deer is dead and the road is cleared, well done guys. If I had happened upon the same situation and had a crow bar to hand I wouldnt think twice about using it to end the animals suffering. If the deer was in the middle of the road who would fancy putting a round into it from point blank range, not me for sure! Stuff like this really saddens me when simple common sense seems to be forgotten about. Edited July 31, 2014 by Alan Maughan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 They really should have better things to worry about, the deer is dead and the road is cleared, well done guys. If I had happened upon the same situation and had a crow bar to hand I wouldnt think twice about using it to end the animals suffering. If the deer was in the middle of the road who would fancy putting a round into it from point blank range, not me for sure! Stuff like this really saddens me when simple common sense seems to be forgotten about. Exactly. Seems to me that some posters are confusing guidelines issued by the HSA, which are relevant to humane slaughter (for human consumption) rather than the guidelines and LAW in respect to humane killing when done to prevent suffering. As I posted earlier, the Deer Act specifically addresses this subject and, quite rightly, makes killing a deer in such a way perfectly legal. Caving its head in with a heavy instrument is simple, clean and instant. No pithing or bleeding is required as the animal will be dead from the blow, pithing is done when using a bolt gun simply because bolt guns only stun and do not kill, it is the pithing action that kills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 They'll go to any lengths to show you don't need to apply for a S5 humane dispatch pistol won't they! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think the issue is the2 normal officers could of put if out its misery using this method so the animal suffered as a result of armed response being called out to kill it with a bar when this could of been done immediately the normal offices came across the deer.so I think that's the reason the officers reported the armed response.So the animal suffered from the time they called in to the time the response unit arrived it's not about the method used it's the time involved Not everyone could dispatch an animal on sight, I know a few officers personally who would be sick just thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I was referencing the HSA "emergency slaughter" guidance not the slaughter guidance.... The law is clear it must be humane, lots of methods are judged as not humane. Drowning of squirrels for example is in humane according to the courts. If they did it all properly then nothing to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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