Kids and guns at 10 on 4

[pontbeck]

Wildrover, I'm leaving the discussion as I feel I have more chance as a peace keeper in the Middle East than convincing you in the fundamental wrongs of the American system

[birdsallpl]

The NRA represents gun owners, it is wrong to suggest it is some sort of evil stooge of big business

What statistics?

Evil stooge of big business! Sorry you have lost me there, don't know how that got into the equation.

Statistics: try,

criminal acts involving fire arms per capita.

Accidents / injuries involving fire arms per capita

Deaths / murders involving fire arms per capita

Compare USA with any democratic western country and you will see how the statistics can explain the current situation.

[ordnance]

 

Accidents / injuries involving fire arms per capita.

Obviously the more firearms there are the more accidents there are going to be. The same goes for cars etc.

[birdsallpl]

Obviously the more firearms there are the more accidents there are going to be. The same goes for cars etc.

That's why it has to be measured per capita, the only fair way of doing it

[wildrover77]

That's why it has to be measured per capita, the only fair way of doing it

I am happy to use those statistics, just explain anomalies like Switzerland and finland

 

Or within America itself, Chicago and Washington, D.C. Have very strict licensing including a handgun ban but the highest murder rates.

Edited August 2, 2014 by wildrover77

[birdsallpl]

I am happy to use those statistics, just explain anomalies like Switzerland and finland

Or within America itself, Chicago and Washington, D.C. Have very strict licensing including a handgun ban but the highest murder rates.

Because as we keep saying the US has got it all wrong. Let's look at the anomaly of Switzerland

 

Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

 

Does this not prove the US have it wrong 10x more murders by guns in America than Switzerland which both have a gun culture.

[wildrover77]

Because as we keep saying the US has got it all wrong. Let's look at the anomaly of Switzerland

 

Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

 

Does this not prove the US have it wrong 10x more murders by guns in America than Switzerland which both have a gun culture.

 

But how about the situation between states in USA? Those i mentioned that have firearms control as strict as here and those like Arizona that have the firearms controls everyone believes exist all over the usa - virtually none

[birdsallpl]

But how about the situation between states in USA? Those i mentioned that have firearms control as strict as here and those like Arizona that have the firearms controls everyone believes exist all over the usa - virtually none

 

Could be something as basic as more crime prevalent in those states. I don't know. It doesn't alter the basic facts.

Interesting debate and thanks for responses. ATB

[brett1985]

im not sure that their gun culture is wrong, maybe different, but not wrong.

 

ok, i agree that if their gun culture was adopted into the uk then there is no way it would work as our general culture is entirely different.

whenever i look at how gun culture is handled in the usa, i try to take into account all the other information, like the size of their population compared to ours, their gang culture, their way of life etc etc.

 

its all too easy to sit on this side of the pond and criticise what they do and how they do it when we dont have to live there.

 

that being said, on a recent trip to the states i had a lengthy conversation with a man and his family who were from iowa about their views on more/less gun control in america and they seemed happy with the way things were handled out there.

i asked about how they store their guns and they leave a pistol in the nightstand and a shotgun above the front door.

 

when i told them that i had to leave my guns in a cabinet and had to be licenced for shotguns and rifles they were appalled at first but after a bit more time talking they seemed to think that maybe storing the majority of their guns in a safe, while keeping a pistol in the nightstand in a seperate safe probably wouldnt be a bad idea.

 

for me, the biggest issue out their is security of guns, or the inherent lack off in many cases.

[wildrover77]

Wildrover, I'm leaving the discussion as I feel I have more chance as a peace keeper in the Middle East than convincing you in the fundamental wrongs of the American system

Your are correct.

 

I am not necessarily saying USA is perfect, just take strong offence at suggesting some how ours is better

[wildrover77]

im not sure that their gun culture is wrong, maybe different, but not wrong.

 

ok, i agree that if their gun culture was adopted into the uk then there is no way it would work as our general culture is entirely different.

whenever i look at how gun culture is handled in the usa, i try to take into account all the other information, like the size of their population compared to ours, their gang culture, their way of life etc etc.

 

its all too easy to sit on this side of the pond and criticise what they do and how they do it when we dont have to live there.

 

that being said, on a recent trip to the states i had a lengthy conversation with a man and his family who were from iowa about their views on more/less gun control in america and they seemed happy with the way things were handled out there.

i asked about how they store their guns and they leave a pistol in the nightstand and a shotgun above the front door.

 

when i told them that i had to leave my guns in a cabinet and had to be licenced for shotguns and rifles they were appalled at first but after a bit more time talking they seemed to think that maybe storing the majority of their guns in a safe, while keeping a pistol in the nightstand in a seperate safe probably wouldnt be a bad idea.

 

for me, the biggest issue out their is security of guns, or the inherent lack off in many cases.

Exactly.

 

Most American gun owners I know keep there guns locked up apart from a pistol in the night stand.

 

However I grew up in a house hold with shotguns in the hall cupboard and cartridges on the shelf. As was the norm at the time don't remember any accidents with guns and kids. That was only 20 years ago.

[KFC]

I think, given the ignorance of many people in this country regarding our shooting laws, the shame is that many will form their own opinions regarding firearms and children based on that programme.

 

It's a pity that they didn't do the programme over here and show our 'gun culture' which is completely different from the states.

 

The other thing that I felt gave a completely unbalanced view was that all of the subject children shown were A) too young for their level of shooting and B) were all being coerced into performing for their parents.

 

The programme should have been called 'Kids too young to have guns'. They could have made the rich kid with the red-dot sight, all the kit and a champion Dad the subject of the programme but that would have put a more favourable spin on shooting.

 

Whatever you want to say is all in the editing so what better way to end the programme than with the tears of a grieving father. ( I do have sympathy for him btw and know the pain he must be going through)

[STOTTO]

You can't argue the fact that in the USA if you're deranged, an extremist, mentally unstable or generally of unsound mind then it's far easier to get your hands on a gun, legally or otherwise than it is over here.

 

Last time I was over in Colorado, there was a guy in cafe in the middle of the sticks exercising his right to open carry with a pistol on his hip. He was obviously doing this to protect himself and other customers from the bad guys/terrorists/Indians/aliens or whatever it was he was afraid of. It certainly didn't make me feel any safer - what if he'd had a bad day/row with his missus and decided to shoot the place up? Who was going to shoot him? We're all the customers going to start shooting each other?

 

Didn't see the programme myself, but from what you've all said it sounds about as balanced and insightful as an edition of Benefits Street.

I have always felt very comfortable in an armed society, provided that is that I was carrying one myself, but that was a long time ago! Oh and that was legal ‘concealed carry’, some people get jumpy around guns carried openly so always best not to show your hand unless circumstances force you to!

[Scully]

I think, given the ignorance of many people in this country regarding our shooting laws, the shame is that many will form their own opinions regarding firearms and children based on that programme.

 

It's a pity that they didn't do the programme over here and show our 'gun culture' which is completely different from the states.

 

The other thing that I felt gave a completely unbalanced view was that all of the subject children shown were A) too young for their level of shooting and B) were all being coerced into performing for their parents.

 

The programme should have been called 'Kids too young to have guns'. They could have made the rich kid with the red-dot sight, all the kit and a champion Dad the subject of the programme but that would have put a more favourable spin on shooting.

 

Whatever you want to say is all in the editing so what better way to end the programme than with the tears of a grieving father. ( I do have sympathy for him btw and know the pain he must be going through)

Exactly. You can't really base a debate on Americans and their gun culture on this piece of tat produced for the sole purpose of showing Americans and their gun culture in the worst possible light.

[Oxfordshooter]

Using the same logic that the more people who carry guns as part of their day-to-day lives then the safer everybody is; the only way to prevent the mass school shootings which occur regularly in the USA is to arm the children incase a gunman or one of the teachers (also armed) goes on a shooting spree. For safety reasons, perhaps the toddlers should just be packin’ .22’s though.

[Steppenwolf]

I generally like the American gun culture and most of thier gun alws. Although authoritarian states like Maryland and New York should relax their gun laws. I think in this country we have become pansified so much that we see the free availability of firearms for responsible people as something bad. It might be slightly more dangerous with more guns around but a quote springs to mind:

 

"I'd rather have dangerous liberty rather than peaceful slavery".

[Scully]

Using the same logic that the more people who carry guns as part of their day-to-day lives then the safer everybody is; the only way to prevent the mass school shootings which occur regularly in the USA is to arm the children incase a gunman or one of the teachers (also armed) goes on a shooting spree. For safety reasons, perhaps the toddlers should just be packin’ .22’s though.

In a society anywhere in the world where the ownership and carrying of firearms on a day to day basis is common, would you feel safer with or without? So is the logical answer to ban all firearms? Logic also states that if no guns were allowed in the UK at all, then the shootings in Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria wouldn't have happened, but then we wouldn't be having this debate, or at least not on a shooting forum.

But there again it's ridiculous stating the extremes of a problem in order to prove a point don't you think? The matter of private gun ownership is far more complex than that.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Scully

[STOTTO]

Using the same logic that the more people who carry guns as part of their day-to-day lives then the safer everybody is; the only way to prevent the mass school shootings which occur regularly in the USA is to arm the children incase a gunman or one of the teachers (also armed) goes on a shooting spree. For safety reasons, perhaps the toddlers should just be packin’ .22’s though.

School children have I rightful expectation to feel safe and secure whilst on school premises, therefore the faculty should have established measures in place to as far as is possible prevent such occurrences. In the event of an alarm being raised, in my view it would be a sensible safeguard to have a dedicated team of armed response personnel available on-site to contain the situation. I do not consider teachers to be suitable candidates for this role as they might harbour a predilection to exterminate the little darlings after having a bad day!

As for arming the little sweethearts well in my days at school we were armed with paper clips and elastic bands and by god they were lethal enough!! So I will pass on that idea as well if you don’t mind, “Only in America”!

[Oxfordshooter]

In a society anywhere in the world where the ownership and carrying of firearms on a day to day basis is common, would you feel safer with or without? So is the logical answer to ban all firearms? Logic also states that if no guns were allowed in the UK at all, then the shootings in Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria wouldn't have happened, but then we wouldn't be having this debate, or at least not on a shooting forum.

But there again it's ridiculous stating the extremes of a problem in order to prove a point don't you think? The matter of private gun ownership is far more complex than that.

 

I'm not anti-gun nor anti-Yank, I am pro-background checks and pro-gun security though.

 

Given the choice, I'd rather live within the confines of the gun-control system we have here, than in the US where it seems like every nut-job can get hold of a gun legally or otherwise.

[Davyo]

I dont think a ban on firearms would result in murders like cumbria, hungerford or dunblane repeating.These nutters would find other means be it a knife, machette or anything else.What does need to happen is FAC/SGC being removed indefinatly for any nutter who has previous for mental issues or violence.(sorry but I dont beleive in leopards changing their spots ****) Example, Atherton case in Durham,this guy should of never of had his licences returned, when police called during a household fracas he was intoxicated and threatening to pan his spouses head in.But then again he would of probably just used a kitchen knife.Even on the day of the Cumbria incident,2 young children in the uk where fatally stabbed, not a snippet on the news.Its people who kill not guns.

[STOTTO]

 

I'm not anti-gun nor anti-Yank, I am pro-background checks and pro-gun security though.

 

Given the choice, I'd rather live within the confines of the gun-control system we have here, than in the US where it seems like every nut-job can get hold of a gun legally or otherwise.

Unfortunately even with our system of rigorous security and background checks the situation is that any resolute ‘nut job’ has that option available to him, I believe that the official expression is “Determined Individual”!

[Old farrier]

Hi chaps

Watched the programm obviously it was tv and edited to get a reaction

The problem as I see it is that they base the purchase of gun for there children on

There constitutional right to bear arms

 

Sadly the constitution was written in the days of muzzle loaders

Not the days of the ak47 and Uzi

Yes have arms teach your children but do we realy need to expose them to so much so soon

 

Anyway just my take on it

All the best

Of

[Muddy Funker]

what was the bit at the end with her rolling in the surf about??

Yeah not so sure about that part either? Something for the pedos out there maybe?

[Oxfordshooter]

Unfortunately even with our system of rigorous security and background checks the situation is that any resolute nut job has that option available to him, I believe that the official expression is Determined Individual!

You're right, but there's no denying that proportionately there are far more gun related incidents/accidents over there than we have here. In their case, having more guns has not made them safer.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Oxfordshooter

[Salop Matt]

The program was as expected a very big downer on firearms and generally exploited idiots with guns who shouldn’t be allowed a super soaker.
I watch a fair bit of it but didn’t manage to the end as i found it very sad and almost troubling.
That idiot in the chair may be ex serviceman or what ever but he wasn’t fit to be a parent with what I saw, also what’s with the "Zombie killers" absolute nutters and the idiot with the rotary barrelled mini gun that when fired climbed a fair way up...... The nine year old boy who died from the 22lr, am sorry but the responsibility and accountability for the death of that child in my mind lies 100% with the parents and there lack of control and common sense, it was all too much too soon and this was the tragic result.

It’s great that the Americans can have some fantastic fire-arms to use and enjoy, how ever I think they need to restrict exactly who can get there hands on them in the first place. Also I think a lot of these parents need to take a long hard look at themselves and maybe surrender there firearms and get a bit of help and normality back.

I went to the US last year and really enjoyed it and am excited to go back, its not a bad place and these folk shown are in the minority that are nut jobs but the rest of the population needs to wake up and realise things need to change because of some of the bad eggs in the basket so to speak.