grrclark Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 After reading and hearing more and more on this,I'm starting to change my mind in favor of a yes vote. Then Scotland can go and do as it pleases without all the we've been kept down by the English government blah blah. Let them stand and prosper or fail and fall by their own hand. If of the off chance they get it right and do well then we can look to change for the better too. Forgetting Scotland for the Scottish for a moment,Do we as a country actually need them, I think not. What do they bring to the table we can't do without. Figgy Economically there is a fairly significant benefit to the UK from Scotland, Scotland do have a much more favourable balance of trade, we are a good exporter and that benefits the UK quite considerably. Although the UK is still a net importer the Scottish exports improve that. There is a also a ratio of trade with the rest of the world that has a significant effect on the borrowing costs of the UK, regrettably we pay out more than we earn, but if you removed the Scottish exports, principally oil, whisky & food, that would have a further unfavourable effect of around 25%. IT is very likely that the overall cost of UK borrowing would increase, there would be an impact on sterling as we are a net importer that would also damage economic growth. The effect on the UK of that particular issue would be relatively short term, probably around 5 years or so, but on the back of the current fragile, recovery it would certainly weaken the UK and introduce a lot of very unwelcome risk. On top of all of that is the huge upheaval of the separation process itself which would rumble on for a long time. Ultimately both sides will just carry on regardless if their is a yes vote, I think both parties will be the poorer for it, but people adjust and move on and ultimately that is what will happen. I think just now there is a much higher 'sense of self' than anything else, I think as a nation we have become quite selfish and have an "i'm alright Jack" headset, there is a loss of community, at least until something goes wrong and we tend to re find it. Although it might not mean much to people at face value, I think the change of cultural identity and history and the loss of the very uniqueness of Great Britain would be a very sad thing indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 This whole referendum is a lose-lose situation. If you look at other independence referendums like Quebec in Canada - they had two go's! Second one was closer than the first. Are we going to have a second go in Scotland in the event of a No vote? If so, that may well damage business confidence for future investment. The last one was 1979 so there is probably a generation or two between these things occurring. There was around 20 years or so between referendums in Quebec. I think it needs to be off the table for at least 15-20 years and i n that time the world economy will have changed so much that the argument will be very different. In Quebec the second one was very close and effectively they got devo-max from that result, much like what would happen with Scotland in the case of a no vote. That has pretty much stopped any further realistic prospects of a referendum in Quebec as they now see the risk of full separation as not worth it, they do have the best of both worlds. One of the pro referendum parties lost out in Quebec in their last elections for promising another referendum as part of their manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 There shouldn't be and regardless of how the vote goes because the result will be a reflection of the will of the majority of the Scottish people, I just don't think those in the Yes camp would take a No result particularly well (that's putting it mildly). Hope I'm wrong though I fear that they won't take it well either, there is so much emotion invested in this for so many of them, an awful lot of it fuelled by rhetoric and propaganda from Kim Jong Eck. That emotion has to go somewhere and so many of these people wont have an outlet, i daresay we will have protest marches and campaigns and all sorts, but as many other people on the No side are sick of this it has the potential to turn to conflict. Alastair Darling and John Prescott had to be escorted to their cars and away from an event in Lanarkshire 2 days ago because the Yes mob were baying for their blood. That was true Scottish Labour heartlands. The polling stations will all have extra police presence for the fear of confrontations. I know a great many no voters who are keeping very quiet out of genuine fear of reprisals. It might be they are just being melodramatic, but in some places there is a genuine feeling of unease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxie Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The Scots are fortunate, in that all they have to do is put a cross in a box in enough numbers to gain independence,most countries have had to bear arms and fight for their independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The Scots are fortunate, in that all they have to do is put a cross in a box in enough numbers to gain independence,most countries have had to bear arms and fight for their independence. There is truth in that, but for many it is the romantic notion of freedom that is stirring them, it doesn't matter that we are completely free to do whatever we please now. We are not an oppressed nation and need to fight to achieve liberty. Independence in respect to Scotland is a fairly disingenuous term. How can it be true independence when the drivers behind it want to retain a fiscal union with a foreign country and then cede sovereignty into the EU, which in it's very creation seeks to minimise the individual entity for the greater 'good' of the collective. It is no more independence than we are now, apart from the insular and narrow minded view of the nationalists that we don't want to be governed from London. That is the crux of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) Trust me, Scotland will use the pound whether they are in a currency union or not. What I was trying to say in my last post is that the attrition of financial institutions is not the great tragedy for Scotland that everyone thinks it will be. There are other, more stable industries that it can build its new economy around. If they try to peg to the pound they will have to retain a _massive_ contingency fund in order to be able to borrow any money. There will have to be massive austerity measures to create this -> economy goes down the tubes. You obviously haven't looked into this enough, it's easy to offer your opinion if you won't have to live with (most) of the consequences. Nial Edited September 12, 2014 by Nial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) If they try to peg to the pound they will have to retain a _massive_ contingency fund in order to be able to borrow any money. There will have to be massive austerity measures to create this -> economy goes down the tubes. You obviously haven't looked into this enough, it's easy to offer your opinion if you won't have to live with (most) of the consequences. Nial This was mentioned on r4 the other day. Mark Carney mentioned about £20 billion of reserves. The top figure of a settlement would be about £15billion. So a minimum of £5 billion would have to be raised for the reserves. That'll be higher taxes then..... Edited September 12, 2014 by Laird Lugton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I hope HM govt tell her where she can stick her referendum. Everything is on hold up here.... Except our extension which we started because I thought two months ago there was _no_way_ the madness of yes would prevail. :( Nial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Should Jolly Jock,the Unctious Tartan Toad,have his way and they leave the Union we must consider the implications for sportsmen.The movement of firearms across international borders requires CONTROL,this is achieved by a BUREAUCRACY,which costs money to implement and maintain.Guess who will pay ? And the SNP are complete Bansturbators, they're pushing through an air gun licensing law despite _everyone_ telling them it's a bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if shotgun and firearm licensing was greatly tightened up. Nial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxie Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 There is truth in that, but for many it is the romantic notion of freedom that is stirring them, it doesn't matter that we are completely free to do whatever we please now. We are not an oppressed nation and need to fight to achieve liberty. Independence in respect to Scotland is a fairly disingenuous term. How can it be true independence when the drivers behind it want to retain a fiscal union with a foreign country and then cede sovereignty into the EU, which in it's very creation seeks to minimise the individual entity for the greater 'good' of the collective. It is no more independence than we are now, apart from the insular and narrow minded view of the nationalists that we don't want to be governed from London. That is the crux of it all. The Celts are well known for their romanticism,they can be more heart than head sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) And the SNP are complete Bansturbators, they're pushing through an air gun licensing law despite _everyone_ telling them it's a bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if shotgun and firearm licensing was greatly tightened up. Nial. That is just one screaming irony about this whole campaign, I am sick of hearing the Yes brigade that rattle on about a government for the people, answerable to the people. The gov't asked what do you the public think about air gun licensing, 86% replied we think it's rubbish. Gov't response "Thanks for your thoughts, we're right you're wrong let's push this through anyway" Answerable to the people indeed !!!!!!! Seems to be the SNP attitude, "we're right you're wrong", doesn't matter the subject matter. Edit to add, an often times similar attitude from the PW collective too Edited September 12, 2014 by grrclark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The Celts are well known for their romanticism,they can be more heart than head sometimes. Scots are well known for their fiscal level headedness ! I think this will be the bottom line at the vote for many Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 And the SNP are complete Bansturbators, they're pushing through an air gun licensing law despite _everyone_( Including the Police ) telling them it's a bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if shotgun and firearm licensing was greatly tightened up. Nial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The SNP showing their colours again.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11091801/Big-business-warned-of-day-of-reckoning-if-Scots-vote-Yes.html Nial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxie Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Scots are well known for their fiscal level headedness ! I think this will be the bottom line at the vote for many Do you mean tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STOTTO Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The SNP showing their colours again.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11091801/Big-business-warned-of-day-of-reckoning-if-Scots-vote-Yes.html Nial. Well there you have it the SNP’s plan for Scotland, it’s going to be the new Cuba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 And here was me thinking the Yes campaign was about fairness and an egalitarian society, turns out it is all about power and to put people who disagree with you firmly in their place. Back to that fascism word again me thinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The SNP showing their colours again.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11091801/Big-business-warned-of-day-of-reckoning-if-Scots-vote-Yes.html Alex Salmond’s former mentor today promised a “day of reckoning” for big business if Scots vote for independence including the nationalisation of BP, the break-up of the banks and a boycott of John Lewis. Lovely - sounds like the new Zimbabwe. As Scotlands largest trading partner, they should be more worried about England boycotting Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriBsa Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Well there you have it the SNP’s plan for Scotland, it’s going to be the new Cuba. Nah, North Korea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I guess over the next few days the rhetoric/press are going to try/say anything and its going to get dirty........typical torygraph stirring it up a bit,but nationalise BP?? good luck with that one matey. Boycott a shop because a business owner states his concerns??? what next my daddy is bigger than your daddy.......the man is a clown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bad lindz Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 can anyone tell me why there has been so much hostility toward some of the No / Better Together supporters by some yes supporters. I have read in couple of my local weekly papers of `No` signage posters being taken down or badly defaced yet all over the place there are yes posters not being defaced ("I think I may have to stock up my supply of cartridges" ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 A non-bias view on the questions brought up concerning the Yes/No vote. http://scotlandseptember18.com/ You need to download the PDF File, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STOTTO Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 can anyone tell me why there has been so much hostility toward some of the No / Better Together supporters by some yes supporters. I have read in couple of my local weekly papers of `No` signage posters being taken down or badly defaced yet all over the place there are yes posters not being defaced ("I think I may have to stock up my supply of cartridges" ) It’s called intimidation, but I believe that type of action in Scotland is an ‘exercise in futility’, Have you ever tried to intimidate a Scotsman when he’s minds made up?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 can anyone tell me why there has been so much hostility toward some of the No / Better Together supporters by some yes supporters. I have read in couple of my local weekly papers of `No` signage posters being taken down or badly defaced yet all over the place there are yes posters not being defaced ("I think I may have to stock up my supply of cartridges" ) that is not the case here, yes and no placards on the same post, bit futile if you think about it, I get the impression yes placards are more available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 It is no more independence than we are now, apart from the insular and narrow minded view of the nationalists that we don't want to be governed from London. The irony being that the vast majority of English folk are sick and tired of the Westminster bubble too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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