I feel like crying !

[kent]

 

Kent with due respect during my short time on this forum , you have without doubt been called a know it all by many different members on many occasions .

Have you ever stood back and asked yourself if they may have a point ?

 

You are of course entitled to your point of view , if I ever decide to go and hunt plywood instead of ducks and geese I will be sure to take it on board

 

That is true but in the main its from the ignorant, inexperienced or those who hold grudges from rubbish they said in the past. Look at the Canada thread I recon less than half have ever tried to actually cook one or cook one with any thought.

 

 

"If everyone is thinking the same way, nobody is really thinking"

General Patton

[birdsallpl]

Correct but people seem only able to select the bits they want to criticise without actually reading the full sentence or paragraph. Perhaps that's why actually reading is so unfashionable now (people have now evolved into only being able to comprehend short single sentences)

The other thing Kent, is people don't like to receive perceived criticism. Don't matter how well intentioned you are, if you express it wrongly the message will be received in the wrong light.

[Mentalmac]

Thank you for posting this Fenboy, it's proof that we are all human and can/do make mistakes. Plus it takes a man with honour to admit it without care for personal consequence.

[wildfowlingmad]

Give the lad a break! When using an area shooting weapon like a shotgun you can never guarantee a clean kill at any range. It is all down to probability and yes at 30 yards the probability is high but its not 100% no matter how good your gun/cart/choke/ability. It happens. It sucks. you have to move on and learn lessons. I've learnt over the years to try and disregard the body (which can be hard!) and just go for head/neck shots, which really does restrict your range. rather than go for the big shot sizes that punch through the bird I select a 3 shot to maximise the chance of a head shot (denser pattern). Many wildfowlers will disagree with this but it works for me.

[Diabolo]

Thank you for posting this Fenboy, it's proof that we are all human and can/do make mistakes. Plus it takes a man with honour to admit it without care for personal consequence.

 

 

It's not care for someone else's personal consequences that concern me, it's care for mine and the sport of wildfowling. There used to be a saying during the war "Careless talk costs lives", and I don't see why someone's careless talk in their desire to share their deeds of derring-do or whatever else should give antis even the slightest bit of help in their war on us. I'm a member of a club which has a moratorium in posting about bags, locations etc. with good reason: perhaps other clubs should consider incorporating the same into their rules. Nothing to do with range of birds, wounding or a personal criticism of any member of the forum, just a request to think a bit before posting about sensitive issues where the world and his wife can read, copy and paste, and forward to third parties including those with massive influence who would see us banned off the marsh. They are out there - really!.

[Reabrook]

It's not care for someone else's personal consequences that concern me, it's care for mine and the sport of wildfowling. There used to be a saying during the war "Careless talk costs lives", and I don't see why someone's careless talk in their desire to share their deeds of derring-do or whatever else should give antis even the slightest bit of help in their war on us. I'm a member of a club which has a moratorium in posting about bags, locations etc. with good reason: perhaps other clubs should consider incorporating the same into their rules. Nothing to do with range of birds, wounding or a personal criticism of any member of the forum, just a request to think a bit before posting about sensitive issues where the world and his wife can read, copy and paste, and forward to third parties including those with massive influence who would see us banned off the marsh. They are out there - really!.

I take your point Diabolo and agree with some of your concerns but I'm also of the opinion that we have nothing to hide. What we do if done correctly is legal and just as important sustainable. I thought the OP told a good story and expressed real concern that he may have got it slightly wrong and attempted to rectify his mistake. There are those that would try to make mischief with that without a doubt but start hiding the reality and facts and well find ourselves in deeper trouble.

[Grandalf]

Well it's fairly obvious that Kent's problems lie with his dog training - the animal just wasn't up to the task and should not have been used...etc, etc, etc.

How the hell can you office chair experts make judgements like you do - poor bloke has a bad day and is honest and gets taken apart for his troubles.

Lighten up and join the real world.

 

Good luck in the future Fenboy. Don't be put off.

[birdsallpl]

I take your point Diabolo and agree with some of your concerns but I'm also of the opinion that we have nothing to hide. What we do if done correctly is legal and just as important sustainable. I thought the OP told a good story and expressed real concern that he may have got it slightly wrong and attempted to rectify his mistake. There are those that would try to make mischief with that without a doubt but start hiding the reality and facts and well find ourselves in deeper trouble.

I don't think it is a case of hiding the facts, What I got from diabolo's thread was 'don't lead with your chin' there are as he said a lot of people out there who will exploit and exaggerate any point they can if given the ammo.

[Terry P]

 

Correct but people seem only able to select the bits they want to criticise without actually reading the full sentence or paragraph. Perhaps that's why actually reading is so unfashionable now (people have now evolved into only being able to comprehend short single sentences)

Something you seem to excel at, you jump in with both feet and then try to extricate yourself with waffle and never ending inane dribble. your incapable of excepting that's others opinions can vary from yours.

Perhaps you should actually read the quote you put up from Patton.

 

Fenboy, defend yourself no more, you have no reason to, you simply misplaced your shot, something every single shooter alive or dead has done. the fact you feel bad about it proves to me that you are of the right ilk. Enjoy the rest of your season and good luck on bagging your foreshore pink.

[JDog]

Something you seem to excel at, you jump in with both feet and then try to extricate yourself with waffle and never ending inane dribble. your incapable of excepting that's others opinions can vary from yours.

Perhaps you should actually read the quote you put up from Patton.

 

Fenboy, defend yourself no more, you have no reason to, you simply misplaced your shot, something every single shooter alive or dead has done. the fact you feel bad about it proves to me that you are of the right ilk. Enjoy the rest of your season and good luck on bagging your foreshore pink.

 

The right post on which to end this thread.

[Reabrook]

I don't think it is a case of hiding the facts, What I got from diabolo's thread was 'don't lead with your chin' there are as he said a lot of people out there who will exploit and exaggerate any point they can if given the ammo.

As with those of Diabolo I take your point. However preventing likeminded people from sharing such stories and anecdotes of our activities on an open forum is to me hiding the facts. We do what we do because we enjoy it and it's natural to want to share some of it. Had the OPs post flouted laws or shown disregard for his actions then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you but he didn't. Others may not like it and seek to distort it but I'd rather not hide what I do rather just show it in a favourable light.

[birdsallpl]

As with those of Diabolo I take your point. However preventing likeminded people from sharing such stories and anecdotes of our activities on an open forum is to me hiding the facts. We do what we do because we enjoy it and it's natural to want to share some of it. Had the OPs post flouted laws or shown disregard for his actions then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you but he didn't. Others may not like it and seek to distort it but I'd rather not hide what I do rather just show it in a favourable light.

Don't get me wrong Reabrook, I thought Fenboys post was fine, see my original thread 27. My point in supporting Diabolo's thread was that we shouldn't give the antis any ammo to hit us with. We should be careful. As I said all fenboy did was share an experience with us. And if he or any of us get something useful from all these threads for us to consider in the future that's good.

[Reabrook]

Don't get me wrong Reabrook, I thought Fenboys post was fine, see my original thread 27. My point in supporting Diabolo's thread was that we shouldn't give the antis any ammo to hit us with. We should be careful. As I said all fenboy did was share an experience with us. And if he or any of us get something useful from all these threads for us to consider in the future that's good.

As I said from the outset I pretty much agreed with both of you and I also don't think we should be providing the ammunition for our own firing squad. It's just I also don't think we should hide what we do either. It's surprising how many people influenced by Anti Propaganda are easily swayed when presented with the true facts

[muncher]

OK, this is really interesting as I have been wrestling with my conscience after know I hit several birds that I didn't kill on my 2012 prairie trip. I didn't hunt wildfowl in 2013.

 

If you can get them in close, say 25 yards, they are a dead duck (joke!) but if you can't, they are tough to knock down. When eating the birds I did kill, there were very few wounds, compared to pigeons I shoot with No 6 lead. Perhaps I'm that bad, leading them wrongly??

 

The general principal here in Canada is "go up 3 shot sizes from what you would use in lead".

 

 

So you end up with BB for geese and 1 or 2 for duck, say.

Everyone knows that "speed kills" - the kinetic energy (1/2 MxV2)of a pellet is proportional to the SQUARE of the velocity, so if 1200fps is the base line, something at 1500fps (25% faster) has 1.56 times the energy. The momentum, (MxV), which helps the pellet maintain its velocity, also goes up but only directly in proportion to the speed.

 

One way to achieve higher pellet speeds, especially if you only have 2 3/4 in chambers, is lighter loads. Bigger pellets, higher speed, what can go wrong??

 

Hunting the internet, web pages, BASC and others advise me that if I use the correct choke at the correct range, I should have a good majority of the pellets in a 30-inch-diameter circle. I know some of you will disagree, but bear with me!!

 

Pellet Density.

They then go on with a list of "Minimum pellet count inside 30in circle to ensure a clean kill". OK, any 1 pellet in the head etc will kill, we are talking about averages. We've all heard that you need "4 or 5 hits" to be sure to knock it down. The figures are surprisingly high:

 

Small duck (teal) 145

Large duck (mallard) 90

Medium goose (Pink/grey) 65

Large goose (Canada) 55

Pheasant 100

Pigeon 140

 

Don't forget, this is for the whole of the 30-inch circle.

Now, again I know many will disagree, (for example, go to : http://www.hunter-ed.com/montana/studyGuide/Shotgun-Choke-and-Shot-Pattern/201027_700048225, but don't argue with me! He works on a 40-inch circle but the pellet density - pellets per square foot is what matters), the 30 inch circle from his figures approximates to:

20 yds for cylinder

25 yds for 1/4 choke (improved)

30 yds for 1/2 choke (modified)

35 yds for full - Many say we shouldn't use full choke with steel!!

I know the wads used in steel loads and the (perhaps) reduced steel pellet deformation may extend these ranges somewhat.

 

Then we go back to the pellet count in the cartridge.

Lets assume that a good pattern results in 90% of the pellets being inside the 30 inch ideal pattern.

 

1 1/8 ounce of steel BB is an average of 81 pellets, 90% of that is 73 "good" pellets, inside the circle.

 

So, at 35 yds, full choke, 1 1/8 ounce of steel BB, IF you get the target fully inside the 30 inch pattern, you can expect a clean kill of geese from your 73 good pellets, but not ducks!!!

 

At 40 yds, the circle has gone up to, say, 35 ins, the 73 good pellets are now spread over an area which is 36% bigger and the 73 pellets inside the 30 in circle has dropped to 54, just borderline for a big goose. THAT'S WITH FULL CHOKE.

Any less choke, or further away is into a lottery of "is it a clean kill or not"!!

 

 

My assumptions:

 

Bigger steels pellets than lead are better.

 

Speed is more important.

 

Cartridge load is even more important.

 

As a result, I went out and brought a 3 1/2in-chambered gun and use fast (1500fps+ cartridges, with 1 1/2 ounce loads, of BB or No 1 for geese and No 3 or No 4 for ducks and all of a sudden, birds are falling from the sky, stone dead!!!

The cartridges kick like hell and cost a lot, but if you only expect to get 8 or 10 shots in a day, so what??

 

PS. 1 1/4 oz (35gms) of No 6 lead shot, half choke, at 30yds should give you almost the 90% of your 225 pellets inside the 30 in circle, ie 200, easily enough to kill your pigeon, which it does.

 

PPS Most shooters radically overestimate the range at which they can kill regularly cleanly. A "super long shot" is usually a lucky long shot, unless you are George Digweed, but he uses Extra Full choke, to keep the pattern density up.

Yes i agree with most of this but there is one big flaw in high velocity steel shells .firstly the faster something goes the quicker it slows ,i think if im correct at about 40 yards a high speed load and a slow speed say 1300 will be of equal velocity ,so whats the point in all that kick , secondly the fast stuff is hard to pattern well and generally you need to lighten the load to keep pressure down so less pellets .with that in mind i shoot heavy shot 50 gram home load 2s . Best of luck next time fenboy if you need another trip out told motty i will take you hes blinkin rubbish guide LOL

[fenboy]

Yes i agree with most of this but there is one big flaw in high velocity steel shells .firstly the faster something goes the quicker it slows ,i think if im correct at about 40 yards a high speed load and a slow speed say 1300 will be of equal velocity ,so whats the point in all that kick , secondly the fast stuff is hard to pattern well and generally you need to lighten the load to keep pressure down so less pellets .with that in mind i shoot heavy shot 50 gram home load 2s . Best of luck next time fenboy if you need another trip out told motty i will take you hes blinkin rubbish guide LOL

 

Thanks , I only managed a Mallard this morning so may well want another trip out on your marsh if we can sort a suitable date out, plus I get a lay in then which is a bonus

Had a handful of geese over me this morning but this time they really was too high despite a fairly decent wind in their faces.

 

I am sure Motty will make a very good guide if you keep taking him out , he is a quick learner , his pigeon shooting has improved greatly since he started sharing a few days with me

 

One thing that stands out from this thread is despite all the rumours of wildfowling being a secretive sport , there are a number of very helpful and genuine guys out there , who like yourself freely offer help and advice .

 

I have had a large numbers of PM's showing support and among them some offers of taking me out to get that so far elusive foreshore pink .

 

So my sincere thanks to you all for that , hopefully when I have more experience I will be able to start helping others as I have been .

 

Ps Nice picture in the BASC mag Jules .

[muncher]

 

Thanks , I only managed a Mallard this morning so may well want another trip out on your marsh if we can sort a suitable date out, plus I get a lay in then which is a bonus

Had a handful of geese over me this morning but this time they really was too high despite a fairly decent wind in their faces.

 

I am sure Motty will make a very good guide if you keep taking him out , he is a quick learner , his pigeon shooting has improved greatly since he started sharing a few days with me

 

One thing that stands out from this thread is despite all the rumours of wildfowling being a secretive sport , there are a number of very helpful and genuine guys out there , who like yourself freely offer help and advice .

 

I have had a large numbers of PM's showing support and among them some offers of taking me out to get that so far elusive foreshore pink .

 

So my sincere thanks to you all for that , hopefully when I have more experience I will be able to start helping others as I have been .

 

Ps Nice picture in the BASC mag Jules .

How about this friday im off all day apart from taking my son to the dentist at 12 if the moon is good we can fit in a couple of flights might even ask that aprentice of mine out as well.

[fenboy]

How about this friday im off all day apart from taking my son to the dentist at 12 if the moon is good we can fit in a couple of flights might even ask that aprentice of mine out as well.

 

I will send you a PM.

[motty]

Fenboy ...

 

I have never had the pleasure of meeting you however .. I can say with confidence your NO Muppet , I have had various conversations with you via PM , with regards to your shooting ability and field craft I would your very much above average , I have read your reports ( backed up by other respected members who where there )and seen photos of what your capable of , blimey your nearly as good as me for Christ's sake !!!

 

what im trying to say is , YOU imho have nothing or reason to explain your actions , you took a shot at a legitimate target , and clipped the bird . we have ALL done it !

you didn't take a stupid shot , of that I willing to bet one of my nuts ( I can live with two )

you have done nothing wrong , as said too many people like to ride about on there moral horse , you are still one of the most respected members on this site in my book , and I for one will always have time for your comments/posts .

 

stevo.

You're having a laugh!

[fenboy]

You're having a laugh!

 

Thats the last time I lend you all the pigeon out of my freezer for a photo opportunity

[Big Mat]

Yes i agree with most of this but there is one big flaw in high velocity steel shells .firstly the faster something goes the quicker it slows ,i think if im correct at about 40 yards a high speed load and a slow speed say 1300 will be of equal velocity ,so whats the point in all that kick , secondly the fast stuff is hard to pattern well and generally you need to lighten the load to keep pressure down so less pellets .with that in mind i shoot heavy shot 50 gram home load 2s . Best of luck next time fenboy if you need another trip out told motty i will take you hes blinkin rubbish guide LOL

 

 

He rubbish isnt he, never manages to find geese when i go for a flight with him...

[UK fowler]

Thats the last time I lend you all the pigeon out of my freezer for a photo opportunity

lol I like that Edited November 3, 2014 by UK fowler

[kitchrat]

Yes i agree with most of this but there is one big flaw in high velocity steel shells .firstly the faster something goes the quicker it slows ,i think if im correct at about 40 yards a high speed load and a slow speed say 1300 will be of equal velocity ,so whats the point in all that kick , secondly the fast stuff is hard to pattern well and generally you need to lighten the load to keep pressure down so less pellets .with that in mind i shoot heavy shot 50 gram home load 2s . Best of luck next time fenboy if you need another trip out told motty i will take you hes blinkin rubbish guide LOL

Yes, the hi-speed stuff will slow quicker but until they reach terminal velocity, which is when it's like rain falling at 300 yds range, the faster stuff will always be faster than the slow stuff, it's just the differential will reduce.

Patterning can be a problem, I agree, but my point really is that the amount of load is more important than the size of the pellets in the load. It has just simply been assumed that you use bigger pellets and all will be well, but if there ain't enough of them, then you don't have an effective pattern anyway. I think you are with me on that, using 50gm loads of No2.

Speed is, I think, of secondary importance, but makes you feel confident, which always helps!!

Edited November 4, 2014 by kitchrat

[Penelope]

Your apprentice .

 

There was something Sugary about you with that stubble.

 

How about this friday im off all day apart from taking my son to the dentist at 12 if the moon is good we can fit in a couple of flights might even ask that aprentice of mine out as well.