grrclark Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Aris, I agree with those comments. In my first post i did say that there obviously was a need in the shooting community to hear/see something and BASC missed that. A dual line of communication would be good, albeit tricky to manage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Is this "newer and clearer" letter in the public domain yet? Only ask as I'm dashed if I can find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussexboy Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Is this "newer and clearer" letter in the public domain yet? Only ask as I'm dashed if I can find it. http://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/FELWG-LETTER-Certificate-holders-re-initiative-101114.pdf Didn't take more than 30 seconds to find it. (only because somebody sent me the link last night!!) Edited November 12, 2014 by Sussexboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) http://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/FELWG-LETTER-Certificate-holders-re-initiative-101114.pdf Didn't take more than 30 seconds to find it. (only because somebody sent me the link last night!!) Many thanks. Even with your kind reply, I still can't find it on the ACPO website (the BASC link was good). That just might be my stupidity but it does appear that it is not in the public domain whereas, like the original announcement, I feel it should be. Tilting at windmills, perhaps. Edit: Didn't say exactly what I meant - corrected. Edited November 12, 2014 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffin Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 it worries me when people want one organisation ok if on your wavelength but cant beat choice because of choice you can go where you like to spend your money. Many of the criticisms come from the fact some do not like what one organisation does or people in it don't do what you want. What would you do if no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossberg-operator Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 it worries me when people want one organisation ok if on your wavelength but cant beat choice because of choice you can go where you like to spend your money. Many of the criticisms come from the fact some do not like what one organisation does or people in it don't do what you want. What would you do if no choice. I guess this was for me. What I meant with one, powerful organisation who can lobby better, like the NRA's strength on the other side of the pond. Their voice can be heard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry P Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Well said Bakerboy. I go back to my earlier point, there is an awful lot of backslapping for the CA for their initial approach, but was it actually merited, did it have the requisite quality, or was it just a bit of pitch fork waving grandstanding noise that actually did very little to advance anything? From what I see the impact was the crime stoppers number was dropped, so a good thing at face value, but likely of very little consequence at all. The other thing was that the re-issued letter actually weakened the case of the shooter because it relaxed the reasons to justify a knock on the door from the police, very subtle but significantly more impact than getting rid of a number that no one actually knows. BASC maybe didn't wave and rattle their pitchfork to satisfy the clamour from some of the shooting community, but thankfully they did keep their eye on the detail and when all the initial furore dies down that is what really counts. Better in my opinion to take a little bit of time and do the right thing instead of going up like a puff of powder just to be seen to be doing something. +1. Also people moan about not getting a response off BASC. But how many actually contact BASC to ask them directly. Far to many come here moaning and expect David to answer 24-7. When I was not happy with BASC agreeing to put greylag on general liscense I wrote to Basc to make my feelings known as did many others, I also wrote to NE and they did not put greylag on the GL. Things can be achieved if the effort is made to do something yourself. Re lead I see the government has just signed an agreement to phase out lead so not matter what BASC or any other shooting org do I truly believe its days are numbered, something else to lay solely at BASC's door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Re lead I see the government has just signed an agreement to phase out lead so not matter what BASC or any other shooting org do I truly believe its days are numbered, something else to lay solely at BASC's door. Any chance of a link to that, please? Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 +1. Also people moan about not getting a response off BASC. But how many actually contact BASC to ask them directly. Far to many come here moaning and expect David to answer 24-7. When I was not happy with BASC agreeing to put greylag on general liscense I wrote to Basc to make my feelings known as did many others, I also wrote to NE and they did not put greylag on the GL. Things can be achieved if the effort is made to do something yourself. Re lead I see the government has just signed an agreement to phase out lead so not matter what BASC or any other shooting org do I truly believe its days are numbered, something else to lay solely at BASC's door. A very valid point, although I think most will just not renew with BASC and send their cheques to another organisation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 might warrant a new thread but here are the two links (I think) http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ca/campaigns-shooting/welcoming-quito-decision-on-lead-shot http://basc.org.uk/blog/press-releases/latest-news/wildlife-conference-guidelines-on-lead-ammunition-flawed/ David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffin Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 not a dig at anyone but one organisation is the answer for many and it should really be for us all but I do not believe it would work like the NRA One organisation with out competition would be hopeless in my opinion some would try even less than now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry P Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Any chance of a link to that, please? Many thanks. http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/New-twist-lead-shot-debate-UK-signs-international/story-24508163-detail/story.html Hope this works Wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 might warrant a new thread but here are the two links (I think) http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ca/campaigns-shooting/welcoming-quito-decision-on-lead-shot http://basc.org.uk/blog/press-releases/latest-news/wildlife-conference-guidelines-on-lead-ammunition-flawed/ David David, If that was in response to my question at Post #58, I thank you. I had already seen those reports but they don't answer the question asked of Terry P in as much as it refers to his statement that the UK Government has signed an agreement to phase out lead shot. As, far as I am aware, that is not strictly true. The agreement is not binding and whereas the UK is a signatory, I have heard no mention as to whether or not the government propose to adopt the policy. I would hazard a guess and suggest any action on their part, if any, will follow the final LAG report (unless, of course, it does another Cullen/Dunblane to us; the possibility of which we have learned to our cost cannot be discounted). The NGO has indicated that provided we act as we should (must) with regard to the use of NTS, then we have nothing to fear in the report. If we are aware of this, then so also will be the antis and as the final report, we are told, is now being written they'll be flat out to catch us out. Consequently, it is critical that we're seen to be whiter than white throughout the remainder of the 'fowling season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/New-twist-lead-shot-debate-UK-signs-international/story-24508163-detail/story.html Hope this works Wymberley Terry, It did and thanks. I did not see it until I posted at #63 (I type very slowly). It'll take a bit of reading, so will catch you later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 wymberley You are very welcome. As far as I know the UK government has not signed up to this, but of course along with all the other orgs we are keeping a close eye. What was discussed at the conference is not binding to the best of my knowledge, but yes the usual suspects are chiming on about it to try and get rid of lead shot Compliance with the law is key I agree, and yes I believe the final report from LAG is being written, but I have no idea what it contains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/New-twist-lead-shot-debate-UK-signs-international/story-24508163-detail/story.html Hope this works Wymberley Terry, As I read that, although the government is a signatory of the ICMS, there is no mention of it adopting the policy in question. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 wymberley You are very welcome. As far as I know the UK government has not signed up to this, but of course along with all the other orgs we are keeping a close eye. What was discussed at the conference is not binding to the best of my knowledge, but yes the usual suspects are chiming on about it to try and get rid of lead shot Compliance with the law is key I agree, and yes I believe the final report from LAG is being written, but I have no idea what it contains I don't agree that voluntary compliance with the law is key! If people don't want to comply and/or don't think they will get caught, and the law isn't enforced, compliance will always be patchy at best! what is the point of introducing a law then not bothering to enforce it?.....because that is what's happening!.....the current non-compliance of the lead shot ban is the trap our enemies set for us by forcing through the species specific element of the lead shot ban in England and Wales.......and the stick our enemies are currently beating us with! I fear there will be no improvement until enforcement action is taken via traceability of ducks at the game dealers....I predict a few prosecutions will ensure a dramatic increase in compliance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I don't agree that voluntary compliance with the law is key! If people don't want to comply and/or don't think they will get caught, and the law isn't enforced, compliance will always be patchy at best! what is the point of introducing a law then not bothering to enforce it?.....because that is what's happening!.....the current non-compliance of the lead shot ban is the trap our enemies set for us by forcing through the species specific element of the lead shot ban in England and Wales.......and the stick our enemies are currently beating us with! I fear there will be no improvement until enforcement action is taken via traceability of ducks at the game dealers....I predict a few prosecutions will ensure a dramatic increase in compliance! Oh, my giddy aunt! A few more as like minded as your good self then we really are in the mire. I am no fan of BASC regarding the overall NTS situation BUT it must be patently obvious as they've - together with all the other organisations - emphatically said that if we can't conduct ourselves in a sportsman like and law abiding fashion then we deserve everything we get. I understand the point you are making but at the moment it's the only key we have to keep the door firmly locked in the face of the antis. A few prosecutions now is all they need to wipe the floor with us. Surely, it is incumbent upon ourselves to ensure that there's no 'incidents' between now and the season's end which might adversely affect us in the LAG final report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Oh, my giddy aunt! A few more as like minded as your good self then we really are in the mire. I am no fan of BASC regarding the overall NTS situation BUT it must be patently obvious as they've - together with all the other organisations - emphatically said that if we can't conduct ourselves in a sportsman like and law abiding fashion then we deserve everything we get. I understand the point you are making but at the moment it's the only key we have to keep the door firmly locked in the face of the antis. A few prosecutions now is all they need to wipe the floor with us. Surely, it is incumbent upon ourselves to ensure that there's no 'incidents' between now and the season's end which might adversely affect us in the LAG final report. Non compliance is undoubtedly a major problem because it is a major weapon in our enemies armoury! but where do the RSPB, WWT et al get their ducks to test? yep! the game dealers! and where do the game dealers buy their duck? not from coastal Wildfowlers I'd guess, because the coastal Wildfowlers I know don't shoot enough duck to sell! I would further guess that compliance from coastal Wildfowlers is at least in the high 90% plus range. If the people that sell their lead shot ducks to the game dealers can't/won't voluntarily comply with the law then they should suffer the full weight of the law.....because if this small minority can't be persuaded/forced to comply? then not just them but all shooters will suffer the loss of lead shot equally! I comply so why should I have any sympathy for those that won't? The usual story..........the selfish few spoiling things for the many! Edited November 12, 2014 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 No it sounds like the RSPB and WWT fudging the numbers by getting ducks from sources which are not wildfowl ducks. This will of course indicate that those brids have been shot by lead shot, durr, no brainer. So the LAG need to know these facts that are being distorted and manipulated to make it seem that there is no compliance with the lead shot ban on wildfowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Non compliance is undoubtedly a major problem because it is a major weapon in our enemies armoury! but where do the RSPB, WWT et al get their ducks to test? yep! the game dealers! We are way off topic here, but English or Scottish game dealers? Do we know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I've just had an email from BASC with a link to the letter from Chief Constable Andy Marsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I've just had an email from BASC with a link to the letter from Chief Constable Andy Marsh. Is it different to the countryside alliance one from last week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Is it different to the countryside alliance one from last week? Yes, very subtly but important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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