Scully Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) Probably of no interest to anyone really, but the passive house we erected last month was tested this morning. We all stood inside looking for leaks while it was pressurised. We were aiming for 0.60 and reached 0.34. Outstanding considering this was our first passive house build. Apparently there is a company in Ireland who can get theirs down to 0.086, so we have a way to go yet, but we're on our way. Boss well chuffed so christmas bonuses all round on top of dinner( and clients are taking us out also) and **** up on black-eye Friday. Edited December 9, 2014 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 What did that mean in practical terms when designing/building it? Is it working to more exacting tolerances or is there a fundamental difference in how you go about things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 it means the house cost way more than is ever possible to recoup in heating cost.....say you save 1.5k on your heating every year and your insulation spec window spec has cost you say 40 k plus additional labour making everything tight,,, more than your more standard components and you have also went with heat recovery etc at several thousand more which cosst electric to run your a very long time of ever gettn your money back massive outlay for the average punter but it is the done thing to say look if got a passive house........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 It means if you let one go it will linger for days, maybe months... Don't like the idea of so little fresh air personally. Well done Scully though, air tightness in buildings is extremely hard to get right without real quality control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 It means if you let one go it will linger for days, maybe months... Don't like the idea of so little fresh air personally. Well done Scully though, air tightness in buildings is extremely hard to get right without real quality control. I wondered about that when they built one on grand designs - what happens with cooking smells etc? Also my dog's bum can clear the park so in an enclosed space it would be terrifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 yea the having to cut every door 3/4 of finish floor really gets me air tight but noise travels all over as result.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Probably of no interest to anyone really, but the passive house we erected last month was tested this morning. We all stood inside looking for leaks while it was pressurised. We were aiming for 0.60 and reached 0.34. Outstanding considering this was our first passive house build. Apparently there is a company in Ireland who can get theirs down to 0.086, so we have a way to go yet, but we're on our way. Boss well chuffed so christmas bonuses all round on top of dinner( and clients are taking us out also) and **** up on black-eye Friday. Very well done . We need much more Passive House thinking and builds. I've been in despair at some the hogwash I read from BRE. Maybe they are getting up to speed now. I noticed there is a new building innovation park near Swindon IIRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 good one, a very interesting project, also if there are too many smarty fells you can always open a window ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 What sort of window and door furniture did you use to minimise heat transfer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoot and be safe Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 It means if you let one go it will linger for days, maybe months... Don't like the idea of so little fresh air personally. Well done Scully though, air tightness in buildings is extremely hard to get right without real quality control. +1 Is there not a slight chance, say bed ridden with the flu for a couple of days, you could suffocate? Nobody would know you were dead as the smell of your decomposing body would be contained. Well done on achieving the high specification required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 +1 Is there not a slight chance, say bed ridden with the flu for a couple of days, you could suffocate? Nobody would know you were dead as the smell of your decomposing body would be contained. Well done on achieving the high specification required. I might be wrong but I thought PH meant that the air movement is controlled with heat recovery from that system rather than the old leaky British buildings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Wasn't expecting this much interest to be honest, so many thanks all for that. The figures relate to (as I understand it) the amount of air escaping from a totally sealed building in litres per hour, and the pass rate for building reg's is 10.00 litres per square metre per hour. All it means really is that on a day like today, when all your windows etc are closed, it is the amount of warm air escaping which you have used and paid for to heat the building. Malkiserow is correct in saying that heat recovery systems are often installed within such houses, but we use those in all our Tradis builds, whether passive or not. grrclark; the only difference between Tradis and PH Tradis (both are Warmcel insulated timber framed I-beam structures) is the amount of sealing we do and the tapes /sealants we use. We still have 600mm of warmcel to blow in to the loft of this building yet. they are going to be toasty warm in winter for very little cost. Photovoltaics are already in place on the roof. Millrace raises some valid points worth considering also. The two houses we have recently erected, both Tradis but only one passive spec', have triple glazed windows which for each house cost around the 35k mark and were installed by a specialist company from Gloucestershire. The biggest leak in the passive house was shown to be the keyhole in the front door...seriously. The other house is about to be tested shortly; it will be interesting to learn what reading it gets as it's non-passive spec'. It will still be around the 0.50 mark or lower I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Thanks for the answer Scully. Just out of curiosity why would the Irish outfit be able to achieve a figure 0.086? Is it just more experience of the type of work needed or is it a design thing or different fittings, i.e. in the houses that you have just built, if they built one with the same spec would they still get a lower value compared to yours? They probably seem like stupid questions asked from a position of complete ignorance, but I like to learn new things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Thanks for the answer Scully. Just out of curiosity why would the Irish outfit be able to achieve a figure 0.086? Is it just more experience of the type of work needed or is it a design thing or different fittings, i.e. in the houses that you have just built, if they built one with the same spec would they still get a lower value compared to yours? They probably seem like stupid questions asked from a position of complete ignorance, but I like to learn new things they probably dont fit a key hole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 they probably dont fit a key hole Haha I did wonder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 In order to achieve very low readings you have to go to extreme lengths. The houses are usually wrapped inside in a vapour barrier and every socket cable pipe that passes through it is then sealed. My house is like this, timber framed and all sealed everywhere. The cost savings on heating are considerable. Your house still breaths but at a much lower rate. Figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) Interesting topic and well done...its no mean achievement attaining passivhaus accreditation because its not just about heat or air loss. Low energy and environmentally friendly heat sources, renewables such a solar and photovolcaic and even environmental impact measures to reduce the Co2 footprint of the build like delivery distances and source of key materials is taken into consideration when accumulating points. You can even lose points if you have to order more bricks because you didn't order enough !!!Site administration is key so give yourself or your man a big pat on the back, and all the trades have to buy into it as well so subcontractor selection is of paramount importance also.We did our first about 8 years ago near Exeter and it was a real learning curve and very interesting watching block mortar being laid with a roller and seeing sparkies first fixing in shorts a tees in the dead of winter when the temperature outside was about -6.One of the biggest problems can be drying out, especially if materials like blocks get wet on site before being laid. The houses are sealed up tighter than a camels *** in a sand storm and materials can take months to dry out properly.I did my thesis on passivhaus back in themed 90,s and spent 2 weeks in Scandinavia researching superinsulation...they and the Germans are, even now, light years ahead of us. My Sister lives in a Passivhaus near Munich and her annual heating Bill ? well you would be very depressed if I told you. Its a bout a months worth for most of us.We have just started 24 passivhaus apartments in Bristol which is on an extremely challenging site and is going to be very interesting. Can you remember the glazer from Gloucestershire ? wasn't Nor Dan in Quedgeley by any chance was it.? Edited December 9, 2014 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Its all so a bit like the government ideas in 2006 that all houses will be zero carbon by 2016!! I saw the figgers yesterday..... We're not going to make it lol By a long shot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chady Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 House/buildings are all built now under terms like sustainability, buildabuility and flexerbuility. It's the way of the world netting the needs of the future but also providing us with our needs. But like mentioned. A lot is down to viability. And to be honest it's not viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 House/buildings are all built now under terms like sustainability, buildabuility and flexerbuility. It's the way of the world netting the needs of the future but also providing us with our needs. But like mentioned. A lot is down to viability. And to be honest it's not viable. I am interested in your comment that it is not viable. Is this from a cost perspective? I imagine PH is expensive to build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Thanks for the answer Scully. Just out of curiosity why would the Irish outfit be able to achieve a figure 0.086? The head honcho is German. They have also been at it for years. Is it just more experience of the type of work needed or is it a design thing or different fittings, The structural type of work is very similar to that we've been doing for years, but the finishing spec' is very different. Normal Tradis of this size would see us building two to three panels a day, passive Tradis saw us only completing one panel per day. The design is different, but only in the number of panels in each wall. The ground floor consisted of only four panels, front and rear elevations, and both gables, (all windows doors and other openings are built in) with 300mm structural glulam beams forming the floor, on which stood the next floor, again consisting of only four panels. This means the amount of sealing only consists of external/internal perimeters, and the four corners. Gutek tongue and groove panels clad the exterior surface of each Tradis panel and all edges were sealed with Orcon sealant (even sets underwater) and taped with Tescon. i.e. in the houses that you have just built, if they built one with the same spec would they still get a lower value compared to yours? Good question. What surprised us, from a building point of view , is that the roof wasn't Tradis built, just normal trusses and joists, which classified it as a cold roof. Normal Tradis would have consisted of a fully insulated Tradis roof also (think of it as a fully insulated flat-pack building with a fully insulated lid on it) In my opinion we would have had an even lower reading if it had had a warm roof; it took a lot of work to get that ceiling sealed. I know nothing of the Irish company, so can't really give a definitive answer, but from an experience point of view alone I would guess they would better it, but frankly would struggle to see how if made to the same spec'. Smoke vapour ( like an e-cig) highlighted three holes; one was a puncture in a vapour barrier made by a staple (sealed), another was a nail hole (not made by us, but sealed) and the keyhole. They probably seem like stupid questions asked from a position of complete ignorance, but I like to learn new things Not stupid at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 they probably dont fit a key hole or leave the key in the hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Interesting topic and well done...Thankyou.its no mean achievement attaining passivhaus accreditation because its not just about heat or air loss. Low energy and environmentally friendly heat sources, renewables such a solar and photovolcaic and even environmental impact measures to reduce the Co2 footprint of the build like delivery distances and source of key materials is taken into consideration when accumulating points. You can even lose points if you have to order more bricks because you didn't order enough !!! Site administration is key so give yourself or your man a big pat on the back, and all the trades have to buy into it as well so subcontractor selection is of paramount importance also.Yes, very important. There is potential for all our work to be undone by someone following us on site who hasn't been instructed as to what the building is and what is expected of them. We did our first about 8 years ago near Exeter and it was a real learning curve and very interesting watching block mortar being laid with a roller and seeing sparkies first fixing in shorts a tees in the dead of winter when the temperature outside was about -6. One of the biggest problems can be drying out, especially if materials like blocks get wet on site before being laid. The houses are sealed up tighter than a camels *** in a sand storm and materials can take months to dry out properly. I did my thesis on passivhaus back in themed 90,s and spent 2 weeks in Scandinavia researching superinsulation...they and the Germans are, even now, light years ahead of us. My Sister lives in a Passivhaus near Munich and her annual heating Bill ? well you would be very depressed if I told you. Its a bout a months worth for most of us. We have just started 24 passivhaus apartments in Bristol which is on an extremely challenging site and is going to be very interesting. Can you remember the glazer from Gloucestershire ? wasn't Nor Dan in Quedgeley by any chance was it.? Will see if I can find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Do you use any expanding foam to seal and insulate around openings for pipes,vents and windows? Are these houses you build using insulated plasterboards? Figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 We use expanding foam, but not the standard type used in the building trade for passive build. We use the standard type in non-passive build. I can't think of its name now but will find out tomorrow if you're interested. Normal plasterboards. We would only use thermal boards for sound proofing really, on partition walls which are too thin to practically inject with Warmcel, which again would only be for soundproofing purposes; anything internal of injected Warmcel Tradis panelling doesn't need insulating to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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