Potential hazard from bad science

[gunsmoke]

Potential hazard from very bad so-called scientific research

 

By Ian Summerell

Gunmaker

 

I was told that one paper of the WWT proved that lead shot contaminates meat, the report they where referring to was the “Potential Hazard to Human Health from Exposure to Fragments of Lead Bullets and Shot in the Tissues of Game Animals” which I found on the Plosone.org website, after read it, I found a few thing wrong with this research and I will point them out below.

 

Link to WWT report:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0010315

 

I will start by looking at the methods used by the WWT to test for lead in game meat. I add the text from the report explaining how they prepared and cooked the meat for testing.

 

Extract from the report Materials and Methods:

For each species, the sample of birds was divided into two groups. An attempt was made to match the groups in terms of the distribution of the numbers of embedded shot visible on X-rays. The birds were then prepared to simulate realistic exposure of humans to lead by consumption of cooked meat. Typical cooking recipes for each species were identified through an internet search (Text S1).

Two cooking recipes were selected for each species: one likely to result in approximately neutral pH, e.g. roasting or stewing with a water or cream-based sauce, and one likely to be more acidic, e.g. involving wine or cider. We call these ‘‘non-acidic’’ and ‘‘acidic’’ recipes, although the pH of the liquid around the bird was not recorded. One group of birds was cooked using each recipe.

Chicken breast muscle (from a supermarket) was used as a control for each species and cooking recipe. Once cooked, any apparently whole gunshot or large fragments of gunshot that could have been detected by the consumer (i.e. $half a shotgun pellet), were removed by dissection and stored, and the cooked meat was separated from the skeleton. Meat and sauce samples were homogenised separately using a hand blender, weighed and oven dried at 20°C to constant weight.

 

The WWT paper does not report the lead concentrate of the cream-based sauce, wine or cider. There must be a natural lead content within the ingredients however small, a quick search on the web I found some interesting facts about lead in wine and cider. I could not find any lead content for cream-based sauce.

 

In the Lane and Lawrence report in 1961 they report that lead levels in cider and wine, showed that cider contained 5.95mg/l [5950ug/l] considerably less lead than home-made wine 120 mg/l [120,000ug/l].

 

A case study in Australia of a man with lead poisoning from drinking home-made red wine:

“A 66-year-old man suffered the symptoms of severe lead poisoning for 2 years before diagnosis. The man had a blood lead level (PbB) on admission to hospital of 98 microg/dL [980ug/l]. A detailed investigation revealed that the poisoning occurred as a result of drinking a homemade red wine, for which analyses showed a lead concentration up to 14 mg/L [14000ug/l]--70 times the Australian maximum limit for lead in wine.”

 

Dr George Baker in the 1760’s put forward the hypothesis that the lead in cider was to blame for the poisoning and the cause of the ‘Devon Colic’.

 

So we now know that wine and cider contain lead and this should have been accounted for in the WWT report. In my view the adding of wine or cider to the meat recipes has contaminated the results.

 

Now lets look at the Xray of the pigeon in the WWT report. “Small radio-dense particles, presumed to be metallic fragments derived from shotgun pellets”. They state clearly that they believe the fragment to be metallic. They claim that these fragments are from shotgun pellets. How can they claim that they are ‘presumed to be’ there are or are not, lead.

 

I was trained by the Department of the Environment to read X-rays and have over 40 years experience pigeon shooting. In my opinion the fragments circled on the X-ray below are not lead. When you shoot a bird with lead shot the shot normally flattens when it hits bone but I have never seen lead shot pellets fragment in the bird.

 

When you shoot the bird out of the sky it can break wings and legs when in hits the ground. I would say that the fragments circled on the X-ray are bone not lead. In my opinion the four round lead shot pellets can be seen clearly on the X-ray, the one on the bottom left has a flat on one side of it, the fragments in the circle top right of the X-ray look to be to be broken bone.

 

 

 

Figure 1. X-ray of a woodpigeon illustrating four gunshot and numerous small radio-dense fragments. Radio-dense fragments may

trace the passage of shot through the bird; some fragments are close to bone suggesting fragmentation on impact, others are not.

doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0010315.g001

 

Small radio-dense particles, presumed to be metallic fragments derived from shotgun pellets, were observed on X-rays of 76% of birds (Table 2: species range 65–85%). The majority of fragments

found were very tiny (i.e. less than about a tenth of a shot in size) and both too small and too scattered to be detected or removed by a consumer (e.g., Figure 1). The proportion of birds with shotgun

pellets, small fragments or both visible was 87%. The majority (60%) of birds with no shotgun pellets visible on the X-ray had small radio-dense fragments. The small radio-dense particles sometimes appeared to follow the track taken by a shotgun pellet during passage through a bird, were sometimes clustered around bone (Figure 1), but sometimes appeared to be scattered throughout the bird.

 

In Table 6 of the WWT report looks at their results of lead in cooked meat,

 

Lead in cooked meat (ppb ww)

Red Grouse Mallard Partridge Pheasant Woodpigeon Woocock

1165 593 1120 980 433 3410

 

The results shown in table 6 of the WWT report give the parts per billion of lead in the wet weight of the cooked meat recipes. What is the lead level within the Wine and Cider?

 

In a report in the USA for the Environmental Protection Agency they tested US wines and imported wine. They found that US wine had an average of 58 ppm of lead in poured class of wine and imports had an average of 195 ppb. In the same study they found that apples had 30 ppb, cooked French fries 60 ppb, canned tuna 167 ppb and canned fruit cocktail 180 ppb.

 

The WWT report is being used by the Lead Ammunition Group to try and prove that there is a potential hazard to human health from eating lead shot game meat. This so-called scientific paper and research cannot be relied on and we now have a potential hazard from bad scientific reporting on shooting and the sale of game in the UK.

 

 

 

 

PS could not post photo of xray.

Edited December 24, 2014 by gunsmoke

[dougall]

I must agree with you on fragments...having shot pigeons for similar length of time @ 40 years I have never seen a lead pellet fracture.....sure flatten/odd shapes,especially on rabbit pelt but never splinters etc within a pigeon...I have also eaten shot pigeon all that time and so far so good!!

[snow white]

Back in the 1994 appx I had lead poisoning 85% lead I got this through work cutting old bribes .I eat a lot of game which I shoot myself with lead shot i don't have any lead in my body through eating it so I my Appian this lead shot in game is a load of bxxx sxxx.

[Paul taylor]

Very interesting. I think this demonstrates poor science in a couple of ways as studies of these kinds usually do (biased) to presume the fragments are lead and not bone which to me is much more likely, without removing any to see what they are is sloppy and as said adding other ingredients which may add lead is either thoughtless or actually done on purpose to get results they want.

[David BASC]

Its a matter of fact that wines and vinegars contain traces of heavy metals.

 

The lead in cider you quote from the 18th Century report should be taken in context. The lead contamination was as a result of lead being part of the cider press and also because lead shot was used to 'shot blast' clean the presses and other kit, this meant there was a large residue of lead particles left which ended up in the next batch of cider.

 

Once the lead was removed from the presses and lead shot was no longer used to clean the kit, it was found that the cases of Devon Colic has all but vanished, this second research was conducted by Bakers son incidentally.

 

Have you taken up these points with the WWT?

[Scully]

Like I've said before, unless the science is undertaken by a completely unaffiliated body with no agenda to either side of an argument then there will always be claims of bias.

I think the point about the risks to humans of eating lead shot game as part of the human diet has categorically been shown to be negligible, but it doesn't appear to stop Debbie Paine from spouting her contrary opinions in an attempt to further her agenda.

Well done Ian, thanks for the info'.

[malkiserow]

Seems to me there are flaws in this as well.

 

I'd put far more credibility in a UK uni with some well thought through research. One would be to use a control from the same batch of birds but trapped rather than shot. Background lead needs to be established. I don't see chickens as a final test but just an indicator. In all cases the lead would need to be actually fired as the lead is affected by the heat/gasses.

 

After all that, then look into typical cooking methods/techniques/recipes. The residual lead in all materials needs to be established. The lead changes from the cooking and combining processes need to be understood.

 

Lead shot "break up" needs to be characterised as the results reported above seem odd to me. Another test can be carried out with lead within meat at different particle sizes. The particle size and distribution may have a significant impact.

 

If anyone is serious about this (i.e.) funding some tests, I can help using a UK based uni and or research centres which focus on food research.

[David BASC]

Intestinally, given your point about the wine Gunsmoke, if you read the results of the report you will note that is clearly says;

 

'Lead concentrations in cooked meals were not significantly affected by the cooking method used, when typical UK cooking methods were employed. In particular, whether or not recipes included acidic ingredients (wine or cider) did not affect mean lead concentration'

 

Also, that only 'unusually high' levels of weekly consumption were likely to raise blood levels to above current limits

 

And finally, the point about independent analysis is very valid, but I would point out that the analysis referred to in this report was independent - for example the Laboratory of the Government Chemist did the analysis of lead in game from the UK study, and having worked for the LGC in the past, I can assure you their work is of a very high and totally independent standard

[malkiserow]

sounds like the original document is well worth a read.

 

David, do you mean LGC in Teddington attached to NPL?

[David BASC]

Yes, but when I first stated working these they were still based next to Waterloo Station in the middle of London, they moved to the NPL site the year I left

[gunsmoke]

‘Much to do about nothing’

 

by Ian Summerell

 

John Swift came to the DI meeting and reported the findings of a Norwegian report. People who eat lead shot game meat had higher lead level than people who don’t. I cannot accuse John Swift of lying but I make the accusation that he was misleading and disingenuous in his reporting.

 

The new report from Norway is the “Consumption of lead-shot cervid meat and blood lead concentrations in groups of adult Norwegians.” Meltzer et al (2013)

 

The Abstract of the report states:

 

Several recent investigations have reported high concentrations of lead in samples of minced cervid meat. This paper describes findings from a Norwegian study performed in 2012 among 147 adults with a wide range of cervid game consumption. The main aim was to assess whether high consumption of lead-shot cervid meat is associated with increased concentration of lead in blood. A second aim was to investigate to what extent factors apart from game consumption explain observed variability in blood lead levels.

 

Median (5and95percentile) blood concentration of lead was 16.6 mg/L (7.5and39 mg/L). An optimal multivariate linear regression model for log-transformed blood lead indicated that cervid game meat consumption once a month or more was associated with approximately 31% in crease in blood lead concentrations. The increase seemed to be mostly associated with consumption of minced cervid meat, particularly purchased minced meat.

 

However, many participants with high and long-lasting game meat intake had low blood lead concentrations. Cervid meat together with number of bullet shots per year, years with game consumption, self-assembly of bullets, wine consumption and smoking jointly accounted for approximately 25% of the variation in blood lead concentrations, while age and sex accounted for 27% of the variance. Blood lead concentrations increased approximately 18% per decade of age, and men had on average 30% higher blood lead concentrations than women. Hunters who assembled their own ammunition had 52% higher blood lead concentrations than persons not making ammunition.

 

In conjunction with minced cervid meat, wine intake was significantly associated with increased blood lead. Our results indicate that hunting practices such as use of lead based ammunition, self-assembling of lead containing bullets and inclusion of lead-contaminated meat for mincing to a large extent determine the exposure to lead from cervid game consumption.

 

After reading this you may be thinking that hunters that eat lead shot game are doomed! I believe this is no more than scare mongering, we had the scare in fresh chickens last week and soon we may see a report in the shooting press reporting the high levels of lead in game meat is dangerous and reporting the findings in the Norwegian study.

The Norwegian study had no control group.

 

The average BLL at 19.3 ug/l in the Norwegian Study was below other EU studies at 20-30ug/l.

 

I would point out that this stud shows that Norwegian hunters who eat lead shot game have lower BBL than the EU average.

 

We are told that lead is toxic. They banned lead for wildfowling, they now want to have a total lead ban for all shooting. That is the aim of the WWT and RSPB, the WWT reported this in a BBC news report and the RSPB have reported their intent on their web site.

 

Oh, they say, they’ve removed lead from paint, lead from pencils and lead from petrol.

 

Lets look at this a little closer, over the years we have been told that lead is toxic, CO2 is the cause of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) and carrots help you see in the dark.

 

I do not intend to go into detail of CO2 but we have been told that CO2 is the cause of global warming were as in fact NASA tells us that there has been no global warming for over 15 years. I believe this was to create a market for CO2 and alternative energy systems.

 

They haven’t removed the lead from the inside of pencils. Lead wasn’t put into the graphite, it was in the paint on the outside of the pencils.

 

The wartime propaganda told the British public that carrots helped you see in the dark. This was to make the Germans think RAF pilots ate carrots to see in the dark, to hide the fact that we had radar.

 

That brings back to TOXIC lead. Lead is toxic in high concentrations and the lead they put into paint and petrol was not the lead we use for shooting. The lead we use in shooting is solid lead and may have a little bit of antimony in it to make it harder.

 

Lead in petrol was not solid lead, in was Tetraethyl lead and it had a chemical formula of (CH₃CH₂)₄ Pb. Researching this article I found a web site reporting that the level of lead in the air reduced year on year from 1920 but when Tetraethyl lead was removed from petrol it started to go up year on year. The theory is that the Tetraethyl lead in petrol combined with the lead in the air and fell to the ground.

 

Lead in paint was white and red lead, white lead is lead carbonate or lead sulphate, and red lead is lead tetroxide. White lead was the main white lead pigment used in some paints. Red lead was used in metal paint and primer coatings.

 

The lead used in shot and bullets is not toxic in its solid state and is very stable.

 

Now lets look at the Norwegian report, they report hunters that eat lead shot game meat having higher levels of lead in their blood than people who do not. This may be true but how toxic is the level they have?

 

We know the human body needs trace elements of metals and minerals. You need Iron and Zinc. You also have trace elements of silver and lead. I’m told we also need trace elements of Arsenic!

 

It is said that the phrase born with a silver spoon, was because people that used silver cups for wine and drinks had trace elements of silver in the blood helping to fight off diseases.

 

Question, do we also need a trace element of lead in our blood? I do not know the answer.

 

How much lead did the Norwegian hunters have in their blood?

 

The Norwegian report says that an average of 22.3ug/l lead was found in the blood of hunters that eat lead shot game meat. That was higher then people who did not eat lead shot game meat.

 

How toxic is 22.3 ug/l of lead in the blood?

 

ug refers to micrograms and L is litres, so there is 22.3 micrograms of lead in every litre of blood. To put this into prospective the average is a trace element of a really very small tiny amount of only 0.0000223 grams of lead per litre of blood.

 

That is the claim and we are being told that we should reduce that lead level. John Swift told the DI back in 2010 that there is lead in the food chain and we have to find ways to reduce it.

 

What is the safe level of lead in blood?

 

I work with lead in the workshop and Health and Safety tell me that the max level of lead in my blood should be not more than 600ug/l, at that level I have to stop working with lead. At 500ug/l I have to see a doctor. That is 0.000600 grams per litre of Blood.

 

If I read the American study Schafer (2005) correctly, the blood lead levels in the general population are expected to be around 15 μg/dL.,15 ug/dl is 150 ug/l.

 

That is why at the end of the Norwegian report, that an average of 22.3ug/l in hunters eating lead shot game is lower than the average American at 150ug/l, comes to the clear conclusion that “the risk at an individual level is low or negligible.”

 

So all this hype about higher lead levels in people who eat lead shot game is no more than scare mongering. This article is headed, ‘much to do about nothing’ or are we to believe the hype that lead shot game is toxic, my conclusion is that it is “much to do about nothing!”

[David BASC]

Gunsmoke,

 

Do you really think that lead is not toxic?

 

Lead has no biological function at all

 

The 'safe' level of lead in humans is being constantly reviewed, and is dropping

 

There is no lead in pencils - its graphite!

 

Arsenic impacts on the DNA and RNA of higher animals, I have never read any papers that suggest Arsenic is an essential trace element for human biology..

 

And as you say, and as the research you mentioned in your first post and labelled as 'bad so called scientific research' and the research you now quote both conclude, perhaps not surprisingly, that those who eat game that's been shot with lead tend to have higher lead levels in their blood than those who don't, but also, the levels of lead in shot game as the studies show have little impact on the total blood lead level unless unusually high volumes are consumed.

 

Having said that I am sure you, like all of us, would remove any visible lead shot from the pheasant, pigeon, deer etc. we were preparing for the table?

[gunsmoke]

 

There is no lead in pencils - its graphite!

 

 

 

That is what I said. You are misleading members of P/W by making out I wrote something different. I wrote:

They haven’t removed the lead from the inside of pencils. Lead wasn’t put into the graphite, it was in the paint on the outside of the pencils.

[David BASC]

Such a shame, but perhaps so predictable that you so quickly resort to insulting me and wrongly accuse me of misleading people

 

The reports you post simply reiterate what has been said many times before that game shot with lead will contain more lead that if its not been shot with lead, cooking methods make little difference, and lead shot game is only likely to cause problems if exceptionally high volumes are consumed...yet you seem to be suggesting, and correct me if this is wrong, that the LGC research investigation that came to this conclusion was 'bad so called scientific research' ..

 

Your evidence for this what?

 

Could you answer my question please if you think that lead is not toxic?

 

Do you remove visible lead from the game you shoot?

[scotslad]

Unfortunately there is a lot of bad science out there now on a lot of different conservation type subjects, to often the studies find exactly wot who ever is funding them want them to find, which is completely wrong

 

I'd say the obvious flaw is not so much any hidden lead in wine etc as susrley if the cooked both chicken/game in the exact same recipe they should be adding the same ammount of lead to both.

 

But as someone else said earlier they really should of used all game but either lead shot and non shot control (netted trapped) as different species may naturally have diffeent lead content in there meat due to there diet, and also the control/lead shot birds should come from the same area just incase the plants/geology has an impact. No idea if it would but it would rule it out.

 

Many years ago for my dissertation I tested lead concentrations in water in duck shooting/non shooting ponds and never found any correation, due to shooting and this estate has been shot for a long time and shot fairly heavily

Some ponds had more lead but was mainly due to geology and all where failry close together, and i never found any pellets despite shifting throu a lot of silt from the ponds, but it was still only a degree level dissertation so not massively indepth

[gunsmoke]

Thought you might find this interesting.

 

National Shooting Sports Foundation Press release

To: ALL MEDIA
For immediate release

December 23, 2014

For more information contact:

Mike Bazinet
203-426-1320

 

Federal Appellate Court Rules EPA Cannot Regulate Content of Ammunition; Dismisses Anti-hunting Groups’ Lawsuit Seeking to Ban Traditional Ammunition

NEWTOWN, Conn. — The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia today upheld the dismissal of the latest lawsuit brought by anti-hunting groups petitioning the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to issue regulations banning traditional ammunition with lead components. The refusal by the EPA to consider the petition was challenged by the anti-hunting petitioners in federal court in 2013.

 

Traditional ammunition represents 95 percent of the U.S. market and is the staple ammunition for target shooters, hunters and law enforcement, with more than 14 billion rounds sold annually.

 

The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), the trade association for the firearms and ammunition industry, joined the lawsuit on the side of the EPA to ensure that interests of industry and hunters were properly represented. The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled that the EPA had properly dismissed the petition filed under the Toxic Substances Control Act. The petitioners appealed that ruling to the U.S. Court of Appeals, which heard the case in late October.

 

EPA has consistently denied repeated attempts by anti-hunting groups led by the extremist Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) to have the agency ban traditional ammunition, and the court had dismissed an earlier case brought by CBD seeking the same relief. The latest suit simply added more parties.

 

“This latest iteration of a frivolous lawsuit is essentially the same as those dismissed earlier and equally without merit,” said Lawrence G. Keane, NSSF senior vice president and general counsel. “We are pleased the Court of Appeals considered the legal merits in case and has now ruled that Congress has not given the EPA the authority to regulate ammunition, putting an end to efforts by anti-hunting zealots to end America’s hunting heritage.”

 

CBD’s serial petitioning of EPA and its repeated lawsuits are intended to begin shutting down hunting and the shooting sports in America by banning the ammunition that millions of hunters and target shooters choose to use safely and responsibly.

 

“There is quite simply no sound science that shows the use of traditional ammunition has harmed wildlife populations or that it presents a health risk to humans who consume game taken with such ammunition,” said Keane. “Banning traditional ammunition would cost tens of thousands of jobs in America and destroy wildlife conservation that is funded in part by an 11 percent excise tax on the sale of ammunition. The protection and management of wildlife is properly handled by the professional biologists in the state fish and game agencies, as it has been for over a hundred years.”

 

In addition to NSSF, the National Rifle Association, Safari Club International and the Association of Battery Recyclers intervened in the case.

 

Organizations that joined CBD in its lawsuit were the Cascades Raptor Center of Oregon, the Loon Lake Loon Association of Washington, Preserve Our Wildlife of Florida, Tennessee Ornithological Society, Trumpeter Swan Society and Western Nebraska

Edited December 27, 2014 by gunsmoke

[David BASC]

Indeed, I believe this hinged on the fact that Congress had not ruled on this so the EPA have no authority to act against the decisions of Congress.

 

An interesting point is the 11% tax on ammunition sales that is ring-fenced for wildlife management, not sure we want this over here, after all shooters already spend a massive amount on conservation and wildlife management in the UK as the PACEC report showed.

 

However, as lead bullets will fragment, and the result is splinters of lead being found well away from the wound channel, care needs to be taken when dressing out deer for the table to remove as much lead for the meat as possible.

 

Part of the issue in the US that initiated all of this was hunters, after gutting the beasts leaving the internals out in the open which often contained fragments of lead which could then be taken up by scavengers. A simple change in practice would remove this risk and prevent further attacks on the use of lead in this context.

[Harnser]

I have been eating game shot with lead pellets and lead bullits for many years . I also used to cast my own lead handgun bullits . About 7 years ago I asked my GP for a blood test to monitor the lead in my body . I had got concerned about the the amount of lead I that I had been exposed to .

The result came back as being absolutely normal . Of all the people that I know within the shooting community I know of none that have an abnormal amount of lead in their blood .

Harnser

[sitsinhedges]

I have been eating game shot with lead pellets and lead bullits for many years . I also used to cast my own lead handgun bullits . About 7 years ago I asked my GP for a blood test to monitor the lead in my body . I had got concerned about the the amount of lead I that I had been exposed to .

The result came back as being absolutely normal . Of all the people that I know within the shooting community I know of none that have an abnormal amount of lead in their blood .

Harnser

 

I had mine tested because of the amount of lead shot I have made, quite an unusual test for a GP to take and the blood had to go all the way to Portsmouth for testing. It came back as under environmental levels and way below anything to be of concern. That said I always have treated the lead with respect and good hygiene practices so maybe the result reflects this.

[David BASC]

Precisely, the studies listed above plus others have shown that there is little impact on blood level from eating lead shot game, unless exceptional amounts are consumed, this was also supported by the European Food Standards Agency review of lead in all sorts of foods, the full report was published a couple of years ago, and game meat was way down the list of potential sources of lead in the diet.

 

Almost all hunters follow basic good practice and remove visible lead from the game we eat; and those who home load, as you say, typically follow best hygiene practice when it comes to handling lead.

[gunsmoke]

So if they do not like the truth, the moderators take your posts off.

 

I pointed out that a reply to my post was factually incorrect and that the aim of the post was to discredit my article. I did not say pencils had lead in them.

 

In my article on the Norwegian study I said:

“They haven’t removed the lead from the inside of pencils. Lead wasn’t put into the graphite, it was in the paint on the outside of the pencils.”

 

The scientific papers being produce on lead in game and compliance with the lead ban for wildfowling are being produced to reflect a political preconceived outcome.

 

The WWT report on lead in game meat did not account for the lead content of the wine or cider in the recipes. Therefore the report is meaningless.

 

The Norwegian study only tested 147 adults and there was no control group. They did however test the Blood lead levels.

 

In the EU the average blood lead level is between 20-30 ug/l. I used this figure because it was the best I could find at the time of writing. The Average blood lead level in the Norwegian study was 22.3 ug/l. This is within the average limit for the whole of the EU.

 

I found one report that said that the average lead level in the USA was 150 ug/l.

 

Health and Safety put the max lead in blood level at 600 ug/l, at 500 ug/l BLL you have to see a doctor. I understand that you cannot get treat until you have a 450 ug/l BLL.

 

That is why the Norwegian rightly put the risk of eating lead shot game meat at “low or “negligible”.

 

That begs the question why some people seem to want to discredit my work?

 

I’ve proved that the research is being produced to fit a political agenda to ban lead. Even if the evidence is not there they will keep producing paper on paper, then papers on those papers, making look like that is a body of evidence.

 

Why do the replies to my posts try to discredit my commentary on the lead issue? Because they do not follow the anti-lead agenda of the BASC.

 

 

DavidBASC asked me “do you really think that lead is not toxic?"

 

Lead in a solid state is not toxic. FACT!

Red and White lead are toxic. FACT!

 

In some cases Alcohol, Aspirin, Nutmeg, Sugar, Nuts and even Cherries are TOXIC, FACT! And can kill.

[David BASC]

You should take it up with the moderators if parts of you posts are removed.

 

You keep going on about the wine / cider, but fail to accept that the LGC report clearly stated that using wine or cider in cooking made no difference,

 

You also fail to accept that the LGC report showed that there was no risk from eating lead shot game unless exceptionally large amounts are consumed.

 

Again the Norwegian study seems to draw the same conclusion

 

Consequently you seem to be saying that LGC report which clearly shows that there is little if any harm to human health from lead shot game is flawed?

 

Can you prove your potentially libellous accusation that BASC is anti lead?

 

I cannot agree that lead in its pure form is not toxic, what is your evidence? For example in your first post you mentioned Devon Colic as evidence of lead in cider, do you realise that this lead contamination was through the use of pure lead?

Edited December 27, 2014 by David BASC

[STOTTO]

Many years ago at a club Christmas dinner partridge was on the menu and about eight of us selected it as the main course, after which my side plate had about twelve pieces of lead shot sitting in it. One of the other diners remarked, “Blimey look at all that lead shot, we didn’t have any in ours”! “No”, said I. “They must have strangled yours”! But I knew that my teeth were much more accustomed to separating out the little gems of lead from the tasty game meat. Toxic or not it certainly killed my partridge!

 

Regards

[Zapp]

So if they do not like the truth, the moderators take your posts off.

 

Nonsense. The needlessly insulting portion of your post, which contained no information pertinent to the discussion, was removed and you were told so via PM.

 

The remainder of the post, ie the bit that is relevant to the discussion, is still visible to anyone viewing the thread.

 

Please dont twist facts to make it look like the bogeymen are out to get you.

[gunsmoke]

 

You keep going on about the wine / cider, but fail to accept that the LGC report clearly stated that using wine or cider in cooking made no difference,

 

You also fail to accept that the LGC report showed that there was no risk from eating lead shot game unless exceptionally large amounts are consumed.

 

Again the Norwegian study seems to draw the same conclusion

 

 

 

Its a fact that Wine and Cider contain lead, how much? I do not know it was not report in the WWT report. That is my point. You would have to know the lead contain of all the ingredients to know if you are adding lead to the results.

 

I do not accept a bad report and I'm clad you agree with me that both reports show low risk for eating lead shot game meat. Which was my point to start with. 'Much to do about nothing' I know it should be 'much ado about nothing' but I'm not Shakespeare.

 

The point is these reports are being used by anti shooting groups to hit us with and being given weight by the chairman of the LAG, you agree with and accept the bad scientific reporting that it is. Very much like the WWT report on Compliance was bad science.