Scully Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 You carry on with your life moaning about a few little perks,don't worry there are real men out there keeping you and yours safe. I wasn't going to get involved in this having already given my opinion regarding serving and ex serving personnel on another thread, but that's a pathetically cheap shot solely designed to score cheap points and cause offence. I have the utmost respect for all our serving forces, but as I've said before, no one is forced to enlist; everyone in our armed forces today volunteered. They made the choice to join up of their own free will. If they get bits blown off them in the course of that duty then they have very right to expect full and complete treatment, but over and above that which is offered to any other person? Not in my opinion. You mention a special 'covenant'; read Tumbledown by Stephen Lawrence. No special covenant in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 its like something that captain Mainwaring would come out with. . Here's something else he would say, Welsh warrior thank you for sharing,you are right about the covenant,but if we keep pushing and trying to educate people like pike,sorry ordnance then it will become the norm and people will no longer begrudge but instead offer a helping hand to those who given and now ask for just a little in return. To all military ex military on this forum,if ever you feel the need to talk feel free to PM me,we can chat on the phone if you want( you all know what I am on about) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I wasn't going to get involved in this having already given my opinion regarding serving and ex serving personnel on another thread, but that's a pathetically cheap shot solely designed to score cheap points and cause offence. I have the utmost respect for all our serving forces, but as I've said before, no one is forced to enlist; everyone in our armed forces today volunteered. They made the choice to join up of their own free will. If they get bits blown off them in the course of that duty then they have very right to expect full and complete treatment, but over and above that which is offered to any other person? Not in my opinion. You mention a special 'covenant'; read Tumbledown by Stephen Lawrence. No special covenant in there. Yes it was a cheap shot,and yes it was designed to cause offence. I take it you have not read the links about what the "preferential treatment" entails,but you are just another who visualises soldiers popping to the top of lists.i can see by your comment you are in the "no one forced them,they made the choice" camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Yes it was a cheap shot,and yes it was designed to cause offence. I take it you have not read the links about what the "preferential treatment" entails,but you are just another who visualises soldiers popping to the top of lists.i can see by your comment you are in the "no one forced them,they made the choice" camp. I've read the entire thread, and never mentioned queue jumping. Yes, I'm squarely in the freedom to choose camp. My Dad wasn't given that choice, like most of his generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I've read the entire thread, and never mentioned queue jumping. Yes, I'm squarely in the freedom to choose camp. My Dad wasn't given that choice, like most of his generation. Then I have misunderstood you,but you are wrong in your perception of them receiving treatment over and above what is offered to others,the point is they get the same treatment but in certain circumstances when they are assessed by medical staff for placement on waiting lists being a veteran is taken into account when they are compared to someone with the same problem who is not a veteran,there are a lot more factors and indices taken into account by medical teams,but that is all it simply is,not miraculously going to the top of lists or getting treatment that is not available to others,there is nothing sinister or underhand going on. As to your last point,I totally agree with you that you Dad wasn't given a choice,but I think you will agree with me that they were extraordinary times when this country was fighting for its very existence. And you only have to look at the awful lack of treatment for the returning soldiers to see why we now push so hard for the covenant to be upheld. My wife's uncle was in some terrible places and was a runner between trenches and command posts,was blown up and left for dead at one stage,but he survived,when he came back there was no help so for years he drank and started fights in pubs,he never told anyone about his experiences and no one understood why he did it except other people who had been there,he sat with me on two occasions and over a couple of glasses of single malt told me a fraction of what had happened to him and his comrades,it brought a tear to my eyes,he never married,even though before the war he was the village Romeo with lots of girls at his beck and call,he lived alone with his brother who he looked after,and sadly died a couple of years ago when the c ravaged his body. Think of the difference his life might have been if there had been a helping hand to rid him of the demons torturing his mind. All that is asked for is to recognise the sacrifice made and to be given that helping hand on occasions when needed,is that to much to ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 All that is asked for is to recognise the sacrifice made and to be given that helping hand on occasions when needed,is that to much to ask? No, it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Would you think somebody who risks their lives every single day And will run into a burning building to save people's loved ones is more or less deserving than a soldier? How about doctors who risk their lives daily dealing with people carrying Ebola ? Aside from personal opinions on the subject it's impossible to justify "fast tracking" anybody into any medical treatment based on race, religion or choice of employer, we were asked the question on a course once that if there were thirty people on a bus with only one exit and it caught fire should you save the old folk, Pregnant woman, children or disabled first? The answer was a simple no as they all have an equal right to life regardless of age, sex or physical ability , who would you have saved and why? Soldiers just like all other employees are fully aware of the possible outcomes of their employment choice when they join the forces, yes they get a bad deal and deserve to be treated a lot better than they are at present but so does everybody else in this country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Surely the most logical approach is to treat people in accordance with urgency of need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnythefox70 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) All hail the armed forces and give them everything they want and more, or you are all very very naughty boys and girls! Edited March 20, 2015 by johnnythefox70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think there are some differences between some occupations. Our military services and civil defense services are expected to behave differently. They are expected to run towards the sound of gunfire or run into the burning building, the rest of us run away from it (big generalisation). As a result of that we the country have made a promise that we will recognise that selfless action by giving them a degree of special favour as partial reward for the duties that we ask them to perform. That is part of the deal when we ask people to sign up. That is also the reason that they suffer severe sanction if they run away from their duties, it is not so long ago that we shot deserters. The best answer is that everyone should be treated equally, but we don't always have the resources to do that. That means we have to prioritise in some way, so in that respect should a service man or woman who has seen someones limbs blown off by a roadside bomb get priority to health care resources before someone who has worked in a call centre and suffers stress from being told where to go everyday? Yes they absolutely should. We ask our services personnel in a combat operation to take a level of risk that would be considered completely unacceptable in any other occupation. Similar with police and fire brigade. Those who suffer injury, physical or mental, whilst executing their duties for the well being of the public in general deserve a level of preferential service, they have earned it. Priority also has to be given to the seriousness of any injury, so in some cases the service persons wont get priority as their injuries are less critical than a civilians, that is fair too. I don't think there can be an absolute rule, but broadly I support the special covenant between the country and our forces personnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think there are some differences between some occupations. Our military services and civil defense services are expected to behave differently. They are expected to run towards the sound of gunfire or run into the burning building, the rest of us run away from it (big generalisation). As a result of that we the country have made a promise that we will recognise that selfless action by giving them a degree of special favour as partial reward for the duties that we ask them to perform. That is part of the deal when we ask people to sign up. That is also the reason that they suffer severe sanction if they run away from their duties, it is not so long ago that we shot deserters. The best answer is that everyone should be treated equally, but we don't always have the resources to do that. That means we have to prioritise in some way, so in that respect should a service man or woman who has seen someones limbs blown off by a roadside bomb get priority to health care resources before someone who has worked in a call centre and suffers stress from being told where to go everyday? Yes they absolutely should. We ask our services personnel in a combat operation to take a level of risk that would be considered completely unacceptable in any other occupation. Similar with police and fire brigade. Those who suffer injury, physical or mental, whilst executing their duties for the well being of the public in general deserve a level of preferential service, they have earned it. Priority also has to be given to the seriousness of any injury, so in some cases the service persons wont get priority as their injuries are less critical than a civilians, that is fair too. I don't think there can be an absolute rule, but broadly I support the special covenant between the country and our forces personnel. The most measured, unbiased and sensible post on the thread so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Would you think somebody who risks their lives every single day And will run into a burning building to save people's loved ones is more or less deserving than a soldier? How about doctors who risk their lives daily dealing with people carrying Ebola ? The doctors and nurse I know voluntired to go the Armed forces where sent by the goverment that we elected they had no choice I believe 2 of them are still very ill but now recovering. Maybe they should loss their beds for the British citizens who have been blown up fighting for ISIS, or help through the PTSD they suffered whilst fighting for our nations enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 The most measured, unbiased and sensible post on the thread so far. I don't know mate, the convent one was pretty good On a serious note, a big Plus One to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) He is a really interesting chap to talk to indeed. He was involved in early testing as a 20 year old of the Valentine DD tanks which sank in Swanage bay in 1943. Luckily he escaped from his submerged tank alive but three others lost their lives. He then took part in the Normandy landings…and described vividly the carnage amongst the American forces, with dead servicemen strewn over the beaches like flotsam after a storm. He’s very frail at the moment and losing his sight, but has an incredible memory. Hes campaigned for improved welfare for returning servicemen and women for years and feels passionately that they should get much, much more than they do. Some of his other recollections of his time as Commander of the British Army in Northern Ireland in the 70,s are incredibly vivid and eye opening so much so its easy to see why so many of our forces personel serving in NI were affected so badly. What we saw on the news rolls and in the media at that time was just the tip of the iceberg. Mike he sounds a fascinating person I bet the time flys by when you are chatting,if he won't let you write his biography maybe he would agree to recording some chats for posterity,people like him don't come along every day,please pass my respects to him. Edited March 20, 2015 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) I'm confused, There is a petition for Veterans to get preferential Mental Heath Care yet you are saying they do? or am i missing something? (i havn't read the whole threat to be honest) Fair question, I see he has chose not to answer. If it is already happening what is the point of the petition. Thought so, Silence speaks volumes. Welsh 1 Well here's one you won't like ,yes they do get preference for PTSD, yes if there is a person with PTSD and a soldier with PTSD then the soldier gets preferential treatment,it is part of the covenant. Edited March 20, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Do you realise how many soldiers in the next few years will have PTSD and how it has the capability to tear their lives and everyone around them apart,there is little help for soldiers when they leave as most of the civilian set ups do not have a clue what the soldier has gone through or the horrors he may have witnessed,they are often ignored by their practitioners as they are just seen as aggressive ex squaddies where in reality it is the PTSD manifesting itself.Yes there are a few first class facilities,but nowhere near enough to cope with the expected military personnel who will have mental health problems,there are also a great many injured personnel with life changing injuries,who will require help for the rest of their lives. Fair question, I see he has chose not to answer. If it is already happening what is the point of the petition. Thought so, Silence speaks volumes. I see you have again chosen to not read what has been printed,and that your question was answered a good while ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Yes there are a few first class facilities,but nowhere near enough to cope with the expected military personnel who will have mental health problems. Then a petition for more mental health facilities would be more useful than, asking can soldiers jump the queue in front of civilians with similar issues. PS No need to be a drama queen with the large red writing, childish. Most forums perceive responses in capital letters and coloured font - to be the equivalent of shouting in a verbally aggressive manner. Calm down. In relation to practitioners viewing clients as 'aggressive ex squaddies' - any professional practitioner is trained to deal with each client as an individual & not to be judgemental. If a practitioner has behaved in an unprofessional manner - as you describe, where is the evidence and did the clients report the practitioner. Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient. Also I suggest you read the petition again, and my question, The petition is asking for soldiers to be fast tracked. You posted that soldiers are already being fast tracked. Welsh 1 Well here's one you won't like ,yes they do get preference for PTSD, yes if there is a person with PTSD and a soldier with PTSD then the soldier gets preferential treatment,it is part of the covenant. To ensure that Veterans are fast tracked for mental health care and services many veterans fail to get the care they need when they need it most. Edited March 20, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 ordnance - let it go. You clearly disagree, but are now getting a bit silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 ordnance - let it go. You clearly disagree, but are now getting a bit silly. What have I posted that is silly. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Then a petition for more mental health facilities would be more useful than, asking can soldiers jump the queue in front of civilians with similar issues. PS No need to be a drama queen with the large red writing, childish. Most forums perceive responses in capital letters and coloured font - to be the equivalent of shouting in a verbally aggressive manner. Calm down. In relation to practitioners viewing clients as 'aggressive ex squaddies' - any professional practitioner is trained to deal with each client as an individual & not to be judgemental. If a practitioner has behaved in an unprofessional manner - as you describe, where is the evidence and did the clients report the practitioner. Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient. Ordnance you are obviously looking to try and redeem your self but you are failing miserably,the bold red was to show you something you quite obviously missed and then tried to score points with your" thought so silence speaks volumes"comment,if i wanted to shout at you I WOULD USE CAPITAL LETTERS,red coloured font is generally perceived as drawing your attention to. In relation to your other sentence,again you have failed to read the posts properly,if you had read them you would know that i have had PTSD,i speak from experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 In relation to your other sentence,again you have failed to read the posts properly,if you had read them you would know that i have had PTSD,i speak from experience. I am not sure what that has to do with the petition. The petition is asking for soldiers to be fast tracked something that you say is already happening. The logical question is if its already happening what's the point of the petition. Read it again. To ensure that Veterans are fast tracked for mental health care and servicesResponsible department: Ministry of Defence It is thought around 4% of military veterans suffer some kind of mental health crisis, as a result of serving. Post traumatic stress disorder been one of the main mental health issues. At present there no adequate mental health provisions To ensure that Veterans are fast tracked for mental health care and services many veterans fail to get the care they need when they need it most. We urge the Chief of the Defence Staff to look at the provisions and to ensure that Veterans are fast tracked for mental health care and service as at present the military covenant is not been honoured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I am not sure what that has to do with the petition. The petition is asking for soldiers to be fast tracked something that you say is already happening. The logical question is if its already happening what's the point of the petition. Read it again. Again you have not read or understood what i have said, you have failed to read the links offering you advice, yet you continue to go on and on like the Duracell bunny. One more time just for you, the covenant provides for the military to be fast tracked,this does not mean they go to the top of a list, they just get a couple of points more when considered like for like with a non veteran.There are places that offer help, but these are not enough and the projected problems in the years to come will over whelm the provisions in place now. The petition asks the powers that be to look at the provisions and ensure they will be adequate for the future and that they will ensure the covenant is adhered to in relation to the military and priority treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Interesting debate, my stance remains equality for people that need treatment on the NHS, you think differently. I am not going round in circles anymore. Ordnance. Edited March 20, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben0850 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 IMHO Ordnance has been reasonable, you guys disagree, differing points of view. Welsh I sympathise and empathise but you don't do yourself any favours with the sarcasm and daft pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 IMHO Ordnance has been reasonable, you guys disagree, differing points of view. Welsh I sympathise and empathise but you don't do yourself any favours with the sarcasm and daft pics! Thank you for your brief synopsis and input to the discussion,why don't you actually join in and give your thoughts and opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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