Fagus Sylvatica Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 It appears this guy was suffering serious mental health issues before he was arrested. I would have thought that would call into question the decision to have him shot. Have a read here : http://thejakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/news/brazilian-said-unaware-happening-execution/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Bu Le Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 It is interesting that a few posters have intimated that a strongly held opinion is somehow counter to a behaviour expected of a firearms holder. I think I can understand where they are coming from and why, but it saddens me a little that it seems we almost need to be apologetic (not the right word, but a better one escapes me for now, maybe subservient) and somehow discount our own opinions for fear of offending or inflaming others who are anti firearm ownership. If an opinion is well informed and reasoned then we should never back away from expressing that for fear of offending others, there in lies the roots of fascism. Sure express opinions sensitively as deliberately seeking to offend is ignorant, but someone finding offence in something is very different to intent to offend. Quite correct grr however I wonder if he expressed a strong opinion re the right to hold firearms or shotguns or air rifles would his view would be different ?? Just asking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STOTTO Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Below is an extract taken from The Sydney Morning Herald, pertaining to the execution of the Brazilian prisoner; Rodrigo Gularte who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia in his teens, long before he committed the crime. Do you think he deserved to be shot ? Father Charles Burrows, who provided spiritual guidance to condemned Brazilian man Rodrigo Gularte, said the men met their fate without blindfolds, staring straight ahead. "Everyone was looking forward, it seems everyone accepted their fate," Father Burrows said. He said it was difficult because Gularte, who was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was a teenager, was mentally ill. Gularte talked to animals and was afraid of electromagnetic waves from satellites watching him above his prison on the island of Nusakambangan. In his deluded state, he believed Indonesia had abolished capital punishment and established a prisoner extradition agreement with Brazil, which meant he could go home next year. "We didn't think [the execution] would happen," Father Burrows said. "It is finished. It's all done." Sounds like they were all on dope! Probably sedated, would be less trouble that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) no look at the state of their justice system and tell me youd be happy getting a trial there. no i think not, and i actually think mary jane veloso may be innocent. Edited April 30, 2015 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 no look at the state of their justice system and tell me youd be happy getting a trial there. no i think not, and i actually think mary jane veloso may be innocent. The fact remains that drug smugglers stand a very good chance of execution if caught. The 'state of their justice system' is totally irrelevant to that fact unless the drugs were planted, and in the case of the Australians I don't think that was the case. I don't know enough about the other cases to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I haven't said you've broken the law or not now have I. The point I was making, and I wasn't picking on you, was that some of the comments and opinions in this thread might give a bad impression, especially for people entrusted to hold firearms. The fact that you don't care what an anti reads only enforces my point. Well, here's another who cares little what the antis say. I try to be polite in my posting, but I'm damned if I will moderate my views or opinions to appease the anti gun brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footu Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 They didn't get caught by the indonesians, aussie Intel was passed over and they got picked up.so the aussie could have picked them up on their side of the fence and jailed them but didn't. They got them lifted in a country where they knew the death penalty penalty was used for this crime. So who killed them now? Imo , they were reformed and it wasn't justice to kill them.it was revenge. If they had been killed quickly after capture before reforming, that would have been just. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I think that quite a few would reform faced by the death penalty. It wasn't revenge - it was the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 So who killed them now? The Indonesians, hence the thread title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Well, here's another who cares little what the antis say. I try to be polite in my posting, but I'm damned if I will moderate my views or opinions to appease the anti gun brigade. Nobody is asking you to moderate your views or opinions, just the things you might say in an open forum for the good of the shooting community. There is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I presume the antis will be happy if we don't have any view. Perhaps they could supply us with a list of acceptable views or perhaps you could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I presume the antis will be happy if we don't have any view. Perhaps they could supply us with a list of acceptable views or perhaps you could. I think you do really know what Martyn is saying, I'm sure you'd agree that PR is very important to shooting, along with everything else nowadays, as small things get picked up on and blown out of all proportion. It only takes a few 'shocking' stories and a head of stream from twitter/facebook/RSPCA etc to get shooting scrutinised, debated and, if politically useful, further controlled. Comments like 'I'd volunteer to be in the firing squad and use my own shotgun', 'I would hang all drug dealers' and 'Kill em All' (I'm paraphrasing btw) aren't exactly on-message. Nobody should have to temper their language but its worth considering how it plays to the wider world before posting. If you don't care then that's fine but you can't pretend it doesn't matter. That's just my 2 new pence worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I personally don't care what people think about my opinions,,and certainly the anti,s,,,. its only my opinion and I am in no way breaking the law by saying it,, I truly think drugs and by that I mean hard class A drugs cause misery in communities to all involved , I also think that if someone travels to a country where they know that smuggling drugs can lead if convicted to the death penalty, then I,m sorry but when convicted then that's what they have coming to them, how anyone can suggest otherwise is beyond me. people are always saying ( including myself) that the law in our country is too lenient on drug offenders, well lets get tuff ,, capital punishment can be argued about all day, is it right or is it wrong,, but if it is law in someones country and you are caught doing something that dishes the death penalty out then I,m sorry but the death penalty is what you get,, I certainly don't like people coming to our country changing our laws ( and they do ) so why should we disagree with another country,s capital punishment, those people knew the risks and greed simply blindfolded them,,,, bet they wish they didn,t do it now,, and also I bet it wasn,t the first time they had done it, but that's another story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fagus Sylvatica Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 The fact remains that drug smugglers stand a very good chance of execution if caught. The 'state of their justice system' is totally irrelevant to that fact unless the drugs were planted, and in the case of the Australians I don't think that was the case. I don't know enough about the other cases to comment. The 'state of the justice system' is highly relevant to the case(s). I've pasted the comments below from an expat Indonesian forum. You make up your own mind Originally Posted by atlantis Alternatively I could have also quoted the Putusan 45 PK/PID.SUS/2009 which allowed Hillary Chimize, a nigerian drug trafficker sentenced in a case involving several kilo of heroin, to have his death sentence reduced to 12 years "only" in 2009. And again guess who were the acting judges: Imron Anwari, Timur P. Manurung and Suwardi. Two of the judges who refused the right to live to Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan (The panel of judges for his judicial review was the save than for Myu: Imron Anwari, Suwardi and the infamous judge Achmad Yamanie). Or perhaps quoting the decision of the supreme court number 987/K/Pid.Sus/2011 affecting Mary Jane Fiesta Velozo, taken on May 31st, 2011, 37 days before that judges H.Suwardi, Imron Amwari and Achmad Yamanie adjudicated the PK of Hengky Gunawan, one of the biggest drug lord Indonesia has caught (see post #320) and stated that the death penalty is against Article 28 of the Constitution and Article 4 of Law Number 39 of 1999 on human rights. For Mary Jane, simple maid with no money who acted as a drug mule, the panel of judges (Judge Surya Jaya assisted by...Imrom Amwari and H Suwardi) , seemed to be under the impression that death penalty was just fine and wan't infringing any article of the Constitution or Indonesian Law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linny Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 so if I read it right to Aus VIA Indonesia thats plain stupid, they know the rules etc etc was it a cheap flight ! roof rack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 The 'state of the justice system' is highly relevant to the case(s). I've pasted the comments below from an expat Indonesian forum. You make up your own mind <script pagespeed_no_defer="">//=d.offsetWidth&&0>=d.offsetHeight)a=!1;else{c=d.getBoundingClientRect();var f=document.body;a=c.top+("pageYOffset"in window?window.pageYOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollTop);c=c.left+("pageXOffset"in window?window.pageXOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollLeft);f=a.toString()+","+c;b.b.hasOwnProperty(f)?a=!1:(b.b[f]=!0,a=a<=b.e.height&&c<=b.e.width)}a&&(b.a.push(e),b.d[e]=!0)};p.prototype.checkImageForCriticality=function(b){b.getBoundingClientRect&&q(this,b)};h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkImageForCriticality",function(b){n.checkImageForCriticality(b)});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkCriticalImages",function(){r(n)});var r=function(b){b.b={};for(var d=["IMG","INPUT"],a=[],c=0;c=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e)}b.g&&(e="&rd="+encodeURIComponent(JSON.stringify(s())),131072>=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e),d=!0);t=a;if(d){c=b.f;b=b.h;var f;if(window.XMLHttpRequest)f=new XMLHttpRequest;else if(window.ActiveXObject)try{f=new ActiveXObject("Msxml2.XMLHTTP")}catch(k){try{f=new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")}catch(u){}}f&&(f.open("POST",c+(-1==c.indexOf("?")?"?":"&")+"url="+encodeURIComponent(b)),f.setRequestHeader("Content-Type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded"),f.send(a))}}},s=function(){var b={},d=document.getElementsByTagName("IMG");if(0==d.length)return{};var a=d[0];if(!("naturalWidth"in a&&"naturalHeight"in a))return{};for(var c=0;a=d[c];++c){var e=a.getAttribute("pagespeed_url_hash");e&&(!(e in b)&&0=b[e].k&&a.height>=b[e].j)&&(b[e]={rw:a.width,rh:a.height,ow:a.naturalWidth,oh:a.naturalHeight})}return b},t="";h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.getBeaconData",function(){return t});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run",function(b,d,a,c,e,f){var k=new p(b,d,a,e,f);n=k;c&&m(function(){window.setTimeout(function(){r(k)},0)})});})();pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run('/mod_pagespeed_beacon','http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?s=af3d2682d3c0f99a8f54c77150207f91&app=forums&module=ajax§ion=topics&do=quote&t=311252&p=2814258&md5check=b30911e2c2f0635d3c949685ca6c6b6a&isRte=1,l8PuqRhht8,true,false,R3B37ic3Jpw'); //]]></script> Originally Posted by atlantis &&0 Alternatively I could have also quoted the Putusan 45 PK/PID.SUS/2009 which allowed Hillary Chimize, a nigerian drug trafficker sentenced in a case involving several kilo of heroin, to have his death sentence reduced to 12 years "only" in 2009. And again guess who were the acting judges: Imron Anwari, Timur P. Manurung and Suwardi. Two of the judges who refused the right to live to Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan (The panel of judges for his judicial review was the save than for Myu: Imron Anwari, Suwardi and the infamous judge Achmad Yamanie). Or perhaps quoting the decision of the supreme court number 987/K/Pid.Sus/2011 affecting Mary Jane Fiesta Velozo, taken on May 31st, 2011, 37 days before that judges H.Suwardi, Imron Amwari and Achmad Yamanie adjudicated the PK of Hengky Gunawan, one of the biggest drug lord Indonesia has caught (see post #320) and stated that the death penalty is against Article 28 of the Constitution and Article 4 of Law Number 39 of 1999 on human rights. For Mary Jane, simple maid with no money who acted as a drug mule, the panel of judges (Judge Surya Jaya assisted by...Imrom Amwari and H Suwardi) , seemed to be under the impression that death penalty was just fine and wan't infringing any article of the Constitution or Indonesian Law. Sorry, but I disagree. The smugglers are aware of the risks prior to the smuggling, and still choose to do so. The fact the judicial system may be riddled by corruption has nothing to do with the fact that if you are caught smuggling drugs in or out of Indonesia, there is a good chance that if caught you will be executed. Money talks in a corrupt society but I would have thought that was even more of a disincentive to smuggle drugs. But people are obviously still taking the risk. Is it me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Corruption might see a lesser sentence, but drug smugglers are aware that execution is a very serious option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 MartynGT4 - I don't need patronising lectures on what might be seen by a wider audience. It surprises me that you don't trawl this Forum for other items which might please an anti. You seem very selective about what you get involved in. That being the case, it is hard to take you seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrM Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I think most of us agree on here that the death penalty is unacceptably barbaric and in the ideal world not be something that would happen in any country - however it IS still an option in Indonesia, and it is clearly and obviously stated as we have seen by the signs at the airport. So they knowingly took the risk. And yes it is also well know that the officialdom is rife with corruption - when I worked out there in the early 80's the Chinese owner of the company we were doing a project for wanted his own helicopter (no one else had one by the way). The only way he was allowed to have one was to buy the Minister of Aviation one too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STOTTO Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I am definitely not on your most list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linny Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I am definitely not on your most list! same here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 And me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffin Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) MartynGT4 - I don't need patronising lectures on what might be seen by a wider audience. It surprises me that you don't trawl this Forum for other items which might please an anti. You seem very selective about what you get involved in. That being the case, it is hard to take you seriously. Nobody is forcing you to read my comments Gordon and frankly I couldn't give a toss if you find them patronising or not... If I'm selected about which threads I get involved in it's because I have a life and don't spent every waking minute of it trawling this forum, unlike some it would seem. Edited May 1, 2015 by MartynGT4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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